Hacker News Reader

Comment by chii | Hacker News Reader

> if salaries for essential, dirty jobs must go up, i am all for it

so all goods and services that require said "dirty job" in the supply chain will go up in price. This eventually negates the UBI benefits, because the level of UBI no longer can sustain purchases of all the goods and services that it originally could due to the increases in prices.

So do you increase UBI to counter this? Or do you let it be, and UBI no longer pays enough to maintain the same level of living standard. In which case, people are now once again, forced economically, to work "dirty jobs" despite not wanting it.

View on HN

>so all goods and services that require said "dirty job" in the supply chain will go up in price. This eventually negates the UBI benefits, because the level of UBI no longer can sustain purchases of all the goods and services that it originally could due to the increases in prices.

Isn't this the same argument that's used to argue against increasing the minimum wage? "if you increased the minimum wage, then the costs will go up for those businesses hiring minimum wage workers, making the goods more expensive for those workers, and canceling everything out!". But empirical evidence has shown this has not been the case[1]. Because of this, I'm wary of any hand-wavy arguments like these that just mention some effects without attempting to quantify the magnitude of those effects.

[1] random result: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:CBO_Projected_Effect...

"Change in employment: -500k" It's not just that costs could go up, it's that jobs could also disappear. What's the hardest part about entering the job market? Proving that your labor is valuable. It's hard to build a resume when the wage floor is set so high.

Unlike UBI, minimum wages don't affect everyone and aren't purely inflationary. Some workers earn more gross income, some get fewer hours and earn less, and some get laid off. I think I support UBI but it clearly cannot be raised to fully compensate for every price increase.

> This eventually negates the UBI benefits

Perhaps partially. But you have no evidence to support your implicit assertion that it happens totally, or that your argument defeats UBI on the merits

You make some interesting points here, but I think your logic is fundamentally limited. There are alternative, imaginative ways to solve this problem that don't necessarily involve capital. In _The Dispossessed_ by Ursula K. LeGuin, for example, able-bodied workers are required to perform essential work like agricultural work and other "dirty jobs". Much like we conscript people in times or war, we could do the same with regards to needed work that isn't getting done.

a lot of assumptions made here.

let me put it this way:

if garbage person labor shortage is a blocker, i will personally sign up for 1 day per week garbage duty. if that’s the cost to pay for a more equitable society, why not leave the keyboard for a day and perform that noble and necessary duty. i’m sure i’m not the only person on HN who feels this way.

the world isn’t all bad. it’s getting better. but it only gets better insofar as we ourselves become better. it is this striving towards higher harmony that propels us forward.

so do you currently volunteer your time for social work (or any other work for which there is a shortage of people due to low pay and hard to perform)?

Even if you _would_ do as you have proposed above, most people won't. A labour shortage is still likely the result, esp. if said labour is not high paying, but the doing of which is still relatively important to a functioning society.

I'm not against UBI - i would want it, even if it means a higher tax! But i just don't see how it is implementable atm, and also whether there are any negative consequences.

The unemployment benefits that have been paid out in the USA so far has many talking about how it is a disincentive to go back to work - because they are paid more than their original job. I can't see how this won't be the same under a UBI system - so the only way for a worker to _do_ work they wouldn't ordinarily do is to pay more!

> if garbage person labor shortage is a blocker, i will personally sign up for 1 day per week garbage duty.

No you won't

Reply on news.ycombinator.com