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Comment by Bluecobra | Hacker News Reader

Ahh, this is real reason why the phone manufacturers want to get rid of the headphone jack. I was so naive to think it was only about DRM/licensing.

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Isn't this really only an issue if you use the companion app? I doubt the usb-c/lightning/bluetooth headphones can exfiltrate data if you don't have the companion app installed.

You also can't get firmware updates if you don't install the companion app and allow them to spy on you.

Or just update your firmware and then remove the app.

Not just Bose, the Sony WH* series is also guilty of this. Great cans, awful app.

Great headphones would never require an app or updating of the firmware. They should play music as engineered and intended from day one of the purchase of said heaphones, until they no longer work.

I agree they should just work but I also think their could be good cause for an update such as an improved noise cancelation software updates. I would expect that for music playback that just works always even if you decline the update.

I'm curious about the Sony App. What information does it get from the phone? The only kind of sensitive permission it asks for is location, and arguably there's a functionality related to that (change the adaptive sound reduction as a function of where you are). The other permission it asked for is Bluetooth, which I guess is expected since it uses that to talk to the headphones. It never asked for anything else.

I didn't allow it to get my location and I can still get firmware updates and can use it to confirm the codec in use (that's the main reason I have it installed).

Access to the Bluetooth service itself can cause some problems - both in user tracking (as your device notices and is noticed by other discoverable Bluetooth devices), fingerprinting, and through access to the bluetooth data channels (as mentioned in the article with the Bose Connect app)

https://electronics.howstuffworks.com/bluetooth-surveillance...

https://www.soundguys.com/bose-allegedly-tracks-your-informa...

It has an app?

Sony has the worst app I’ve ever seen[1], to the point where I legitimately don’t know how it passed the app store vetting process. Paragraphs of text have wrapping disabled so that the text goes off screen (important text, like the TOS!). Text which does have wrapping enabled wraps on character boundaries instead of word boundaries. Bullet-point lists don’t line up. I have no idea how they made it so bad, it feels like it must’ve taken effort to disable things which just work by default?

[1] Circa 2018, I switched to Bose after that...

It also has two buttons. I really don't see the need for an app. Besides that I don't have a phone capable of running an app so that saves me from getting irritated at Sony. Again.

Maybe the vetting process only applies to peasants and not the likes of Sony.

Why do my headphones need firmware updates? Presumably they work fine at purchase.

Noise cancellation sometimes gets better (or worse) after a firmware update.

Bose also added the in-device EQ to the Bose 700 via patch a few months ago.

Because they have complex software in for bluetooth connection, noise cancellation and other behaviours like automatically switching off when taken out for example. You don't have to update it of you prefer not to.

Because we cut a corner somewhere to make a budget device and realized it was a lot more popular and now we have to patch it like if it was a fucking nuclear reactor....

Patching a nuclear reactor sounds scary

Nothing a little Gorilla Glue can't handle

why do keyboards need firmware updates and companion apps? yet, that's exactly what my razer mech KB required for me to change the slow fade in/out to just "on". Pretty ridiculous and I too uninstalled it after, but who knows if I got it all?

After the AirPods Pro noise-cancelling-regression (resolved, albeit after months), this may be a desirable feature.

Are you talking about Rattlegate? From what I understand, it has been resolved by Apple replacing many people's earpods.

Thanks for mentioning that, one of mine has been doing that for months and I'm contacting support now that I know that it's a common thing.

Why on EARTH would anyone EVER need to update firmware for a pair of headphones? That's asinine.

To work around Bluetooth bugs in newer phones/OSes that come out.

Bluetooth stacks constantly get broken with new revisions, the burden is unfortunately placed on individual device makers to update to work with whatever has broken recently.

In my case improved noise cancellation.

The Bose 700 recently patched in EQ support, I'd say that's a reason.

So to each of you with the same response; You're totally ok being sold an unfinished product, paying too high of a price for it, and then having to opt into privacy violations to use a device which should have worked from day one out of the factory. Got it. Noise cancellation in headphones is a gimmick and a fad. High end studio monitors do not typically use it, and it distorts the experience. It makes sense if you're constantly packed in like a sardine on public transit or crowded spaces and you're simply trying to block out the surroundings, but may I suggest buying a real pair of headphones and carrying a pair of earplugs instead? To be very clear on my point. I see needing to update headphones and being conned into my headphones masquerading as a "smart device" equal to needing a smart toaster, or a connected can opener that some would justify should need firmware updates. It's senseless.

How's it different to any other software? Why should I be sold an 'unfinished' PC operating system that requires updates? Is that asinine?

You don't have to update any firmware if you don't want to. It doesn't mean the product is unfinished. In the past, improvements to firmware would have just been kept for the next revision of a hardware product, requiring you to pay for a whole new physical product just to get that new software.

EQ was not a feature sold to me, it's a free addon, a nice to have.

Noise cancellation is great for those of us that have to work in noisy environments, or for neurodivergent people that need a break from information overload, or for long haul flights... or any number of scenarios you have not considered, as if nothing outside your little bubble matters. And let me guess, your "sardine in public transport" remark is just rubbing in that you don't have to rely on such either, isn't it?

Besides the point that noise cancellation can be turned off at any time, I have a perfectly fine pair of ATH-M50x's for use at home.

This comments reeks of ugly elitism and a severe lack of capacity for empathy. Maybe sometimes you should just not write whatever comes to your mind.

You are surprised that devices can be improved after their launch via software updates?

Or that people will see that as valuable?

Or that people have different preferences in their products than you?

I suspect they liked the device in the state they bought it in, and were pleased when it later got even better at no extra charge (except for installing the app).

You can still buy dumb headphones without Bluetooth or noise cancellation of you don't like smart devices.

Better ANC is the usual reason.

I only installed the Bose app when I was going to be on a plane, as the app allows you to pair multiple Bose headphones to one source. Then you can watch the same movie with someone else.

Edit: Bose also had a nice big opt-out button in the app, and asks during setup.

With the app you can also change the cancellation level, they’re pretty isolated even with the feature powered off entirely but it helps out in some situations.

My Boses allow you to set the cancellation level with a button press. It cycles through three options: high, low, and off. Does the app enable more fine-grained control or something? Perhaps per-ear cancellation settings?

My QC35s don't have that button. It's only available in the app, and there is no fine-grained control or anything - just high/low/off.

I have QC35s too. Maybe a newer rev?

Apparently so. I have the QC35 II, which has a button on the left ear can. Bose calls it the Action Button, and it's used to summon Alexa/Google Assistant; but if you don't configure it to use an assistant (through the Connect app?) it will cycle through the noise cancellation level settings.

which is why bose for example only let you configure noise cancelling through the app.

That's news to me. Guess I won't be ditching my QC25's soon/or ever

There's a button on the Bose 700 to toggle between 10/5/0

I got some Bose 700 this past week. There is still a button on these to adjust noise cancelation.

My QC35IIs have a button on the side to adjust noise cancelling. No need for an app.

The app lets you set the levels the button cycles through, and also set an auto off timer and some other odds and ends.

All features that couldn't be reasonably configured without an app

I think you need the app to switch that to noise cancellation level from digital assistant activation.

I think it's the other way around - I'm reasonably sure it defaults to noise cancellation, and digital assistant is an option. I may also be wrong.

the bose 700 has 3 buttons

one for on/off, hold to pair, hold long to reset bluetooth

one for noise cancellation

one for assistant

in addition it has the transport controls / battery response touch controls on the right earcup

I was referring to the parent's QC35II's which has an app configurable button for voice assistant OR noise cancellation adjustments.

The newer Bose 700's do have all that you have listed.

As usual, if there's no headphone jack, I won't buy that device. Privacy isn't even the deal breaker there. Latency and the ability to use my favourite set (Sennheiser HD600) are.

Can a phone reasonably drive such high-impedance headphones anyway?

As one data point, the headphone jack-having iPhone would drive 26.39 mW into 33 ohms, which means that at max volume you'd be damaging your ears at a volume of around 100dB with the 300ohm impedance and 105dB/mW SPL.

So yes, the previous poster could conceivably be doing the thing that they said they were doing.

Their sensitivity is only 97dB/mW. But I think it's more complicated than that. The amplifier might be able to deliever 26mW into 33 ohms but can it deliver that into 300 ohms? It would have to be able to produce high enough voltages. Also the impedance goes up to almost 600 ohms at the resonant frequency of the headphones, requiring even more voltage [1]. You'd obviously get some sound and it would probably even be loud enough, but there would likely be a significant effect on the frequency response and possibly more distortion that you'd like.

[1 PDF] https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD600.pdf

With a pocketsize amp yes.

When at my desk, I plug in through a Mont Blanc FiiO for my Beyerdynamic headphones. Makes a big difference with some audio. Wireless buds are obviously already a step down from wired, and one step further from amplified cans. And yeah, I'm an outlier and want to be.

But there are combined DAC/amps that will use lightning connectors, so if you use an external amp, you might as well use an external dac/amp instead and get audio quality that is certainly no worse than a random android phone, and possibly better.

Typically at the expense of latency, unfortunately. High enough to dramatically worsen the experience of rhythm games.

When the volume is set quite high (near max setting of the phone, definitely unhealthy for long-term use), it doesn't hold a candle to the Topping DX3 Pro v1[0] I use on my desktop. Important: I don't recommend the v2[1] that's currently on sale, as the measurements aren't anywhere as good. They did destroy the product with the amp redesign they did to get around a high early failure rate hardware problem on the v1 that they were never able to debug. I would suggest the JDS Atom + Atom DAC set or the Topping DX7 Pro instead, cheap (yet powerful well measuring) and expensive (but balanced and ridiculously well measuring) respectively. Or a Schiit Hel for a very portable usb-powered solution for the laptop backpack that also has mic input.

But at lowish volumes (used most of the time, don't destroy your ears!) then yes, phones tend to have reasonable headphone amps in them. With decent power output and lowish output impedance. Unlike most computer motherboards, which have excessive output impedance and out power is so low I'd call anemic, when not flawed in other ways (noise due to poor isolation, or non-flat frequency reproduction due to shit implementations of aliasing filters).

I mostly connect the headphones to the phone to play rhythm games like Love Live sif, allstars or idolm@ster deresute, mirishita. My phone (chinese and a few years old) does very successfully drive the HD600 to a pleasant output while playing these games.

As an aside, I absolutely recommend Sennheiser HD600 to anyone who wants a durable (plus tool-free modular with good availability of parts, and compatibility with HD580/58x/650(aka 6xx),660S parts, thus effectively forever) all-rounder open back headphone with a focus on accuracy that's cost efficient and extremely comfortable. Plus they've been around for a good two decades, thus there's no shortage of reviews to base a purchase decision on.

[0]: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/r...

[1]: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/m...

My LG phones can drive monster planar magnetic headphones easily, HD600 are nothing as long as you buy a phone with a good amp.

My first Fiio product was a cute little amp with a battery inside, worked a treat when the phone couldn’t drive the headphones

>worked a treat

What became of it?

It’s still kicking around, still works, but I switched to easy to drive IEMs for on the go listening so my biggest problem these days is getting the volume quiet enough.

Could be a comfort thing, could be a "don't want to throw away perfectly good hardware" thing.

I like my grados, but my old sennheisers were perhaps a bit more comfortable.

I felt cheated after falling for the mass hysteria, which lead me to acquire my first set of SR-60. It didn't take very long to realise how uncomfortable they are for longer listening periods, or when the cable turns into a tangled mess, and the special hell, when you have to replace the earpads.

I never liked any of the Grados I tried in shops. They do sound offensively colored. I don't get the appeal.

Most headphones do sound colored relative to the HD600, but the key word is 'offensively'.

There were two things that happened when Apple got rid of the headphone jack: (1) they added water resistance, (2) the phones got thinner. Plus, Apple had seen the trends heading toward wireless headphones.

They still included a dongle to give you a standard headphone jack.

While Apple could likely have gotten their water resistance even with the headphone jack, they couldn’t have made the phones as thin. People may disagree with the product choice, but I don’t see any reason to think that those weren’t the real reasons.

> the phones got thinner

No. They didn't.

iPhone 5: 7.6 mm thin, 6: 7 mm

iPhone 7: 7.1 mm

> While Apple could likely have gotten their water resistance even with the headphone jack, they couldn’t have made the phones as thin.

Except that's a pretty obvious lie. Not just that the phones did not get thinner (or lighter), they stayed around the same thickness (+- 0.5 mm), while getting larger, much heavier and much more expensive. But also the thinnest Android phone with a 3.5 mm jack is just 5.1 mm thick, for example. Sony even made a waterproof phone that's 6.5 mm thin and still has a 3.5 mm jack, which is thinner than any iPhone ever.

Everything about this argumentation is wrong or an outright lie. The only reason they did this is because they could moneygrab through accessoires better when they eliminate standardized I/O.

Thank you! I stand corrected.

It looks like the reason most cited, in hindsight, for Apple removing it was to pave the way for a design without bezels and with more speakers

https://screenrant.com/why-apple-removed-the-headphone/ https://bgr.com/2017/10/06/pixel-2-headphone-jack-iphone-x-d...

Which is, indeed, a very different reason.

I would argue the the camera “bump” means that the phone is not actually thinner anyway. Honesty means measuring thickness by it’s thickest point.

The explanation/excuse I recall seeing, was about space, not thickness. The headphone jack takes up space inside the phone that they’d rather put to other uses, like more battery for example. At least, that seems to make a bit more sense.

Yes it does. I think back then teardown pictures made the rounds where the innards of the two generations where virtually the same, except they added some component where the headphone jack used to be. And as far as smartphone components go, a 3.5 mm jack is pretty big; I'd guess about the volume of a camera module.

I don't know who started the thinness-jack meme, I suspect it was an explanation made up by people other than Apple, since Apple is usually more into omitting things instead of lying.

It would be very straightforward as well to simply come up with a new thinner analog headphone jack: maybe something balanced and with a magnetic connector since we’re at it?

The phones are thicker now than they ever were with the headphone jack. In fact, the 7 was the last version to get thinner.

https://i-cdn.phonearena.com/images/articles/301929-image/iP...

Does anybody other than PR/marketing people care about phones being thinner than they are? It's just an excuse to not give better battery life which costs money.

The Samsung S10 line is water resistant with a headphone jack just fine.

Exactly. So is my LG G7. IP68, who wants better than that?

They "had seen the trends heading toward wireless headphones" or they wanted to create the trend and sell their own headphones? The second explanation seems much better.

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