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Comment by natvert | Hacker News Reader

This is huge. Not as a security device, but if this were the normal permission model on all iPhones (e.g. owners of devices get root on the devices they own... like a normal general purpose computing device) I could ditch my android and my mac and use an iPhone for everything.

I'm not saying this will ever happen, but in my mind this paints a bright picture of what the iPhone could be.

It's also a bit sobering as I'm quite concerned Apple is actually pushing the other direction in their shift from Intel to ARM.

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I dont get the allure of this. As someone working in security, the phone is an extremely leaky thing and very bad for privacy to begin with. On top of that you want to remove all restrictions and make it a security nightmare too? I get that you want to install what you like. Sure, but I don't think the convenience is worth the security trade off.

Honestly the mac or desktop is where I enjoy the openness and do stuff I want to do. I would want to leave the phone untouched and as secure as possible.

I would like to hear your and others' take on it though.

> As someone working in security, the phone is an extremely leaky thing and very bad for privacy to begin with. On top of that you want to remove all restrictions and make it a security nightmare too?

One major issue is that Apple's security model is "we don't trust you". And by that I mean everything works from their root of trust; not yours. This isn't the usual "I think Apple is backdooring my iPhone, FWIW", what I'm really saying is that I want the ability to elevate some of my software to the same permissions that Apple gives theirs. There is no reason that I should not be able to vet my own code and add it to the "trust cache". So this isn't just "every app should run without a sandbox", but it should be "I think GDB that I personally should be able to attach to other apps, but nothing else".

My security model actually is “I don’t trust myself”.

One of the obvious conclusions from modern security research is that the user has become the number one vulnerability in pretty much all systems.

The corollary that a lot of people miss is that developers and security researchers are users too. They get pwned too. They some give the wrong permissions to an executable.

Then perhaps a device that prevents you from doing stupid things may be what you want. But I would prefer that your choice does not prevent me from being unable to buy an iPhone that does let me do those things.

This is because apple feels its too easy to trick users into elevating software permissions - which in turn may cause risks and harms to their user base.

Let me ask you - do you have your elderly parents on an android? Then you will know already how totally owned those phones can become.

If you require the user to hook into iTunes/Xcode, flip the device into recovery mode, click a few buttons, and agree to a "You're hecked if you break it now" policy, it'll be enough to scare off 99.9% of people from getting owned. After that, just have it work like the current profiles/supervision system where Settings makes it clear that non-verified code is running and has a big "make it go away!" button (sideloaded IPAs show up in profiles with a delete app button, and that works well enough except for the time limit).

I don’t really agree to this, the end result is going to be a large number of YouTube tutorials instructing people on how to do this with captions like: watch free movies on iPhone, “popular mobile game” money hack, and Snapchat take screenshots without notifying hack.

Half of these developer / root mode required secrets are going to be occasionally working mods and tweaks except with tons of baked in spyware and ads that can no longer easily be removed.

Perhaps some sort of per device profile which requires a paid developer account could work, but I’ve gotten a number of odd calls about YouTube videos involving Kodi from family before, so I’m not sure trusting in the give users freedom front.

This proves exactly the point made above of Apple not trusting the user.

However if someone wants to be an idiot, how far do you go to stop them? Apple's approach stops too many great possibilities for knowledgeable users. It should be in the same category as those "will it blend" types. Screw it up? No warranty.

For me there's several things I need it that are impossible because Apple won't allow them, so I have to use Android. But that's comes infected with Google spyware out of the box :(

I think Apple point is that users that need being protected from themselves without even realizing it are far more than those who might get a benefit from root without getting burnt. Since the two things can’t exist at the same time, they’re going for the road that makes the majority happy.

And provides the least burden to their support service.

> This is because apple feels its too easy to trick users into elevating software permissions

Great, which is why I think offering a separate SKU to people who want control over their devices would be a wonderful compromise. Your parents can buy the normal locked-down iPhone that's sold in the Apple Store, and I'll buy the special one from the hidden page on Apple's website.

If you don’t mind, here’s a comment I wrote recently that I think is very relevant and I figured it just be easier to link to rather than retype: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23784763

> Strange key combinations that lead to scary text and wiping the device seem to be fairly effective in keeping out people who cannot give informed consent.

Not in my experience and certainly not evidenced by all the YouTube videos advocating disabling this or that security feature for questionable gain, including ones with scary text and/or strange key combinations.

And wiping your device?

Yes

I'd rather live with the risk and enjoy the freedom than give in to the authoritarian corporations whose main goal is to achieve complete control over their users, and advertise it under the guise of security.

Personally, I find it a bit sad and disturbing that people will so willingly and eagerly help --- even for free --- these companies put tighter nooses around themselves and others' necks.

(I'm not "Stallmanist", in that I'm not necessarily advocating open-source; but I am a strong proponent of being able to control what one's computing devices runs, regardless of source availability or even legality. In that sense, what Apple does with its walled gardens is really a strong DRM.)

It’s not Stallmanism, it’s ignorance and thinking that you’re the only person on planet. It’s pretty much common thing here.

Apple doesn’t secure and close down by default their devices to please/upset bunch of nerds on HN, they do it, because normal people don’t know a damn thing about technology. People who “willingly and eagerly help” to find bugs and patch them are heroes. Just like that.

> Apple doesn’t secure and close down by default their devices to please/upset bunch of nerds on HN, they do it, because normal people don’t know a damn thing about technology. People who “willingly and eagerly help” to find bugs and patch them are heroes. Just like that.

Of course not, they lock these devices only because it makes them more money. They really want you to pay that 30% cut, "security" is just an excuse. There's plenty of more open and more secure platforms than the iPhone, just have a look at the web.

It’s business, but you still didn’t get what I wrote. :)

> As someone working in security, the phone is an extremely leaky thing and very bad for privacy to begin with.

Compared with a computer where every program can steal all your data?

A computer doesn't follow you around. It also doesn't have a ton of built in sensors (accelerometer, dual cameras, microphones, gps).

Yet the biggest trade secrets will only accessible via a computer when they have certain DLP policies in place which lock down the machine to the same effect that iPhones are locked down, only with the company’s own trust store. The iPhone is Apple bringing this level of lock down to consumers, but with safeguards that prevent the user from adding completely untrusted code (only when you use Apple Business Manager+MDM can you deploy in-house apps without review).

> only when you use Apple Business Manager+MDM can you deploy in-house apps without review

Incorrect and never was true that that was the only way or even the common way.

How is android any better? Anecdotally I’ve seen more compromised android devices than iPhones. It appears to me Apple has defaults, at least now, that protect the privacy of the user. Additionally the ecosystem is less littered with apps that can take over the whole OS. My mother’s phone is always getting compromised by malware or apps that inject ads.

I see it as the opposite: these iPhones are rented to you, and are clearly not what they want to "sell" to people. It's certainly a huge surprise that this exists at all, and I would certainly like more moves in the direction that you mentioned, but I am not sure that this is it.

Nitpick—I wouldn't say it's a huge surprise, since they said last year they planned to do this.

I was actually wondering what was taking so long.

Huge surprise for me, because I personally expected them to pull an AirPower with this and just forget about it (especially since the demand was gone with checkm8).

Curious what you mean by “pushing the other direction.” I would say the opposite — it seems like everything running on ARM is exactly what it would take for your phone to run desktop programs.

I think there are other downsides to switching off of x86, but I think it strengthens the case for having one small portable computer to do everything. The question is if that device will allow real work like macOS, or if it’ll be stuck as a fancy consumer-only device..

Don't get your hopes up. This is not what you think it is, sadly.

> like a normal general purpose computing device

Maybe just go for a PinePhone instead? [1] I mean, Linux GUIs aren't fully mobile and touchscreen friendly yet, but it's getting there real quick. I mean, they started in November 2019.

In my opinion the PinePhone is the most promising device, as all upstream projects use it as an official developer device and upstream linux has integrated support.

[1] https://wiki.pine64.org/index.php/PinePhone_Software_Release...

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