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Comment by kibwen | Hacker News Reader

It depends on the actual numbers for a given game. If it's possible to prove that 0.001% of games are unwinnable, I don't think that's going to diminish anyone's enjoyment of a game.

At 1% unwinnability, I think that almost nobody would notice the existence of unwinnable games merely by playing, but having the knowledge of the exact percentage of unwinnable games might start to diminish enjoyment.

Solitaire, where 20% of games are provably unwinnable from the start, absolutely suffers from this effect, because even when a player loses a winnable game they will be tempted to blame the game rather than themselves, fostering resentment.

If a game was provably unwinnable 80% of the time, then that would be either a damning indictment of its design or an indication that the value of that game is to be found in some aspect other than winning.

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Honestly, given how masochistically some gamers chase max-difficulty wins, I wouldn't be surprised if a game in which only 1% of seeds were winnable would be appealing to some.

But it would definitely diminish many gamers' enjoyment, as you say.

Dark Souls is an example where some players just aren't interested in the difficulty (even though the game is winnable), and some players relish it. Perhaps "win % for the median player" and other populations are more practically useful lenses for the discussion of general enjoyment.

I don't think many people would enjoy that at all.

The appeal of games like Dark Souls (and Slay the Spire!) at high difficulties arises from the knowledge that you _will_ win if you are clever and observant enough.

It's the learning process that keeps players coming back to these games, not the Game Over screen.

I suspect it also depends on how blatantly unwinnable the game is. Imagine you started up a game of Civilization, where you started on a single hex surrounded by impenetrable mountains. That may have a very low odds of happening, but if it does, you'd probably be fairly upset at the game.

An important consideration in that case though is that you'll have unambiguously discovered the "unwinnable" condition within the first two seconds of the game; with no emotional investment in that seed, it'll result more in a curious shrug rather than resentment.

(I say "unwinnable" because it is possible to win that game; in Civ 6 you would just need to build a military district on the far side of the mountain and then you could begin spawning units there, at which point you're now in actually in a very secure defensive position!)

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