Hacker News Reader

Comment by pizza234 | Hacker News Reader

> Making coffee with a normal espresso machine is so easy. You can learn how to do it in 5 minutes (not barista quality, but at least as good as Nespresso)

This is not correct, also keeping in mind that it doesn't exist a "normal" espresso machine - the setup is espresso machine and grinder.

I'm into espresso, and it takes a lot of effort to make consistent shots.

Independently of the quality (to remove the "snob" factor), Nespresso machines are quite consistent. So if one likes the result, they can stick with that and know what they'll get.

Beginners and/or low-end equipment, produce very inconsistent shots. There's nothing inherently wrong, but that adds a crucial dimension in the comparison.

One may prefer potentially worse but consistent espresso (=Nespresso), than potentially better but wildly inconsistent ones (=beginner+low-end semiautomatic/grinder).

View on HN

You don't need a grinder, you can buy grounded coffee at the right size for espresso in supermarkets.

I call bullshit on "a lot of effort to make consistent shots". Unless you are a coffee snob, just putting the same amount of coffee everytime and using a tamper will produce an espresso that is the same than the next one.

The type of coffee you use and how much water you put is what makes an espresso cup different from the next one (again, as a regular Joe who doesn't have any specific training in coffee and is not a snob).

There is no one "right size for espresso". Even with a pressurized filter basket, you can only do so much to achieve proper extraction (i.e. getting the right amount of water through the puck in the right amount of time) without controlling the grind size.

What makes an espresso cup different from the next one is not only the beans and how much water you put through it, but also what is extracted from the beans. Even a regular Joe can tell the difference between a under-extracted sour shot and something closer to proper extraction.

Regular Joe is a lot more pragmatic than paying over $3 for a cup or $1.50 for a bit of a shot. Americano is actually a good deal, tastes better than filter, costs less, more volume than espresso shot. Diluting excess of bitterness or sourness for perceived balance, can be tuned with sugar. The saved coins can buy a cookie to go with it, so can sit in the coffee house longer, maybe meet someone new. Good job, Joe!

I depends. If you have an espresso machine with a pressurized basket it would kind of work even with too coarsly ground coffee. But coffee snobs will tell you that then you don't get proper extraction (i.e. weak taste) and that it would be more consistent but also consistently not optimal.

If you don't have a pressurized basket you really need to dial in the grind setting for each coffee, have a good grinder that doesn't make the machine choke and have a good machine that doesn't "channel", i.e. a lot of effort to make consistent shots.

Absolutely. Pressurised baskets are great when all you want is acceptable coffee with minimal effort. A lot of popular home "espresso" machines come with one for this reason. Many or most Breville (Sage) machines come with one, even the "pro" machines.

I seriously recommend anyone thinking about a pod machine consider a cheap manual machine instead. I then recommend buying fresh ground beans from a local cafe. Not only are you reducing landfill but also supporting local business.

I guess my thing is that I can never find/settle on a good manual machine plus grinder that I would describe as "cheap". I worked as a barista for a few years back in the day and while not a terribly "snobby" coffee drinker, I do miss being able to pull a decent shot and also make microfoam for latte/flat white type drinks.

The problem is that at a minimum I'd be looking at $1000-1500 for a decent grinder and machine and (at least currently) that's up in the realm of luxury items I might buy someday but can't justify right now. Even the passable all-in-one consumer machines like some of the Brevilles are up in the $800+ range and I hesitate to buy anything that expensive that is not repairable.

So instead I just buy beans roasted within the past couple of weeks, grind when needed with a cheap blade grinder, and make drip coffee with a basic machine. Once in a while I do a moka pot and whip up hot milk in a french press for a fake latte but that's usually not worth the effort. When I want an espresso or a latte I go to the cafe and buy one maybe once or twice a month.

I have never considered buying any sort of pod machine. Way too wasteful and expensive for what you get out of it.

I got a cheap manual burr grinder (JavaPresse) to replace my cheap blade grinder, and it has made an enormous difference in the quality of my daily coffee. Granted, I use a French press, so grind size matters more than with drip. But it was a simple change that improved my daily enjoyment.

There are a few parameters to consider:

Beans (roast and freshness)

Grinding (depends on freshness of the beans as well)

Amount of coffee ground (get exactly 14g)

Pressure applied with the tamper (consistent pressure every time)

Extraction time (possibly different grind to get right volume)

Getting all these roughly the same isn’t trivial.

There's a single parameter to consider - yourself, that is one's own tolerances and expectations.

Coffee drinking lately regained its kinds of ritual, which come with proper inventory and attributes. Mini ceremonies we create for ourselves in the name of caffeine jolt.

I once attended an Ethiopian coffee ceremony [1], a bit theatrical, but it has social function, and indeed showcases coffee as it passess from green beans to your cup. By the way, the grounds can be rebrewed twice at least (like good tea).

My first feeling was that the ceremony celebrates the coffee, but then I realized that it's really a way for a host to celebrate the guests, basically the result is not in the cup but in the preparations.

All of us coffee drinkers maintain some kind of the ceremony, for many (pre COVID19) it was standing in the morning line at whatever coffee-'temple', accepting whatever ended up in the cup with your(?) name.

It's when this cult aspect is detached, suddenly all attention is tied to the devices, consistency, origin, etc.

[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_ceremony

"grounds can be rebrewed twice at least (like good tea)"

Confession: I was once a missionary. We had a saying about used tea bags: good enough for a missionary.

> You don't need a grinder, you can buy grounded coffee at the right size for espresso in supermarkets.

That's so not true and "snobbery" has nothing to do with it.

The grind size is one of the ways you have for controlling extraction pressure.

You can only tamp so hard on the coffee. If the grind is too large there's no way for you to get the pressure up to 9 bars that's usually given as the espresso range.

Your coffee will taste sour, like a low pressure moka pot would make. Such a low pressure won't be able to extract the oils that make the creme, so it will also look "flat".

Equally if your store pre-ground coffee is ground too small you won't be able to lower the pressure and you'll end up with a bitter tasting, over extracted shot because you're pulling stuff out of the beans you don't want.

Different beans will have different amounts of oil in them, even for the same brand. That oil affects water pressure too.

So there isn't one "perfect" grind size. Every bag of beans is different and needs to be adjusted to keep in the pressure range.

It's not a particularly complex process. Grind size is just a pressure control and pressure affects taste. The grinder has a setting for grind size and a setting for the amount it produces. You just dial them up or down until you get the result you want.

That's before you even consider how freshness affects taste...

This is exactly why I prefer the Nespresso, there are so many variables to control with pulling my own espresso shots and I really don't want to be bothered with any of it.

I just want a consistent, fresh, and marginally professional espresso without having to become an expert at all the above. It also goes without saying that getting all these variables dialed in, for the most part, doesn't even happen at local coffee shops. There are a few in my area, but they're all at least a 10-15 min bike ride away.

Don't listen to him. You can probably get a reusable pod that works if you want. I have perfectly fine shots, don't let someone make a mountain out of a molehill and did discourage you from ever trying.

Sounds just like over thinking. I just tamp preground espresso and have the espresso shot.

Aye, same, overthinking it a bit. At least, overthinking it for something made at home.

I used to run a coffee shop for a little over a year, and the factors that the parent mentioned are true, but it's mostly a function of using freshly ground beans and making sure they're ground to the right consistency. We had an auto-grinder, but if we had to do it by hand it was about 20 seconds of holding down the button for a darker roast, a little longer (~25?) for the lighter roast.

The home user won't notice the difference too much, and the commercial customer won't notice it at all if you start frothing some milk, adding a little cocoa powder to the top, and putting in a ton of sugar -- which was the bulk of the drinks we sold (sugary lattes and stuff).

There's a very good sibling answer. Something that I'd like to add to it is that temperature is another crucial factor.

Low-end machines have very fluctuating temperatures. Therefore, when one buys a machine in this range, they have to perform tricks, or accept inconsistency.

With my machine for example, I have to run two empty cups before reaching the acceptable temperature, for _every espresso_ (as it drops quickly); I'm fine with it. Machines like the Gaggia Classic require the so-called "surfing", which I've never tried.

I suspect that Nespressos have a very small group, which makes temperature more predictable and quick, for the intended use, which I guess is less frequent shots. This is speculation on my part.

Again, one can be perfectly happy with low-end machinery. There's nothing wrong; just let's be clear that consistency is not what you get with it.

Every time I buy a new bag of ground coffee, I like it better than the one I just used up. That's almost certainly not because the new one is better than the old one, it's because the coffee in the old bag has gotten stale (as the article mentions). So unless I buy really small quantities of ground coffee, I'm stuck with coffee that gets stale.

That's why I bought a grinder, since the whole beans don't go stale so fast.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com