Comment by cft | Hacker News Reader

Comment by cft | Hacker News Reader

I recently took two years off and drove from San Francisco to Panama. I spent a lot of time in El Salvador and in Honduras and made some observations. Police in those countries are invisible (non-existent?). You can pretty much do what you want- Honduras just built a new highway system, you can drive as fast as your engine allows. But when you get to know people, the owners of small businesses will tell you that there's another kind of protection. I would call it racket. In San Pedro Sula especially, when you stop paying for protection, your troubles start. Even on the smallest personal level: there are no meters in the center. We parked on a public street, and a 15 years old teenager came and asked 20 Lempiras for parking. My very experienced German companion wanted to ignore him, but then the teen's "supervisors" showed up. They looked like people you don't want to mess with. They politely offered the schedule: 1h is 20, 30min is 10 and left. We opted tor 30min, and the teen timed us to a minute on his watch. In exchange, he "guarded" my California plated car and blocked the upcoming traffic so that I could leave the parking spot (and that he could get another "customer"). I believe some people would actually prefer that system, but so far I liked the American system better.

The great news for business owners in Seattle’s CHOP zone is that they get to pay for two protection services: one is from the city which is nonexistent. The other is from the private service.

So I guess, very similar to central america

Yeah, if you pay taxes and are within the CHOP zones, do you get a refund because you didn't get the law enforcement services you paid for? Completely ridiculous that this CHOP thing has been allowed to continue for so long. No other group could simply seize control of part of a city and behave like a gang.

Wait 'til you hear about the police!

> do you get a refund because you didn't get the law enforcement services you paid for?

Maybe if you get in on the class action lawsuit against the city. There's no duty to protect (which is absurd, but apparently how this country works), but the premise of the lawsuit is that the city did worse than merely failing to protect.

Under the law, your taxes do not guarantee you any law enforcement or protection by the government.

This is a common misconception that people hold.

Similar happened to me in Morocco. Parked in a public park. Guy came over and told me it was 20 dirham. I Argued with him a little bit pointing out it’s a public parking lot and there is no meter. Spouse told me to pay the man or he may cause trouble. I relented thinking of the damage he could cause to our rental. He did guard our car and stopped traffic.

Police were prevalent, just setting up speed traps and shaking down tourists.

Maybe related to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baksheesh

In Egypt a decade or so ago, this was rife. There was the usual tipping, but a guy at the airport wanted a tip for telling me it was OK to use a public toilet. Watching cars is another common one, and it's appreciated of course but the implicit threat of damage is not. Offering to carry bags through the express security line in the airport was another strange one.

I had that happen in Capetown. It was cheap enough I was happy to pay the guy and be done with it. I'd feel differently if I was local, but I also obviously looked like a tourist, had an American accept etc.

This is everywhere in South Africa. It annoys people but it's not worth making a fuss over. It's clearly extortion but it's so widespread for so many years that it's de-facto legal.

This very much applies to the de-facto economic system in Russia. Not on the parking meter level, but more that you cannot run a moderately-sized business without being a part of a corrupt network originating from the early post-USSR mafia.

The biggest trouble with this model is the lack of long-term predictability. Sure, you can pay your protection money and operate your business today, but the next day your "supervisor" gets on bad terms with his superiors and gets replaced. Their successor may simply not like you (or have their own protege to take your place) and then you're basically screwed. Your business gets raided, your family is taken hostage, you will be happy if you're left alive after basically donating your share to somebody who had better connections.

As a result, nobody wants to do long-term investments. Business that cannot be promptly liquidated is not not worth the hassle. Assets that cannot be transferred outside of Russian jurisdiction in case shit hits the fan are liabilities. So the economy boils down to extremely corrupt oil/gas companies owned by people from Vladimir Putin's personal network, and rather rare mom-and-pop shops that sort of fly under the radar until they don't.

I hope this model isn't coming to the West, since it's simply incompatible with economic prosperity.

This was a thing in the early 2000s in Sicily when I was stationed there with the Navy. However, being a brash 19-year-old and thinking I was hot shit, I always just ignored them and never suffered any ill effects. It might have been related to my obvious association with the military (although I wasn’t personally intimidating I’m sure), or maybe they’re all bark and no bite there. Perhaps I was just lucky. I think today I’d probably just pay the 2€.

3 years ago in Catania we rented a car without insurance. Then after getting into the city from the airport and navigating to the unexpectedly shoddy, dark and cheap neighborhood where our hostel was we found a group of kids offering their services for helping us park the car. There was absolutely no traffic at around 10 PM and though it wasn't just the easiest place for parking it was hardly something that we needed help for. On the first night we paid up, they very diligently guided me while I reversed into a spot, but next night we said we know how to park already thank you. No supervisor showed up, but we were then sweating bullets because what if something happens to the uninsured car! (Nothing happened. Yaay!)

I went to a football (soccer) game in Istanbul at the new "Olympic" Stadium. We drove there and since there's insufficient proper parking, everyone was just dropping their cars wherever they could within walking distance. It's in a surprisingly desolate area but numerous enterprising individuals had set up a similar parking scheme there. We paid.

On the way out, several cars had had their windshields smashed: punishment for the non-payers.

I am from Honduras. I think you are crazy to drive a US car there.

Whenever anyone talks about how bad things are here, I invite them to Honduras, especially if they make claims like “nowhere is as bad as the US”.

>I believe some people would actually prefer that system

They prefer private entrepreneurs rent seeking, rather than a representative government doing it?

I think he meant that some people would prefer the parking service experience. As in some people would prefer having a service where you can pay someone to watch and guard your car.

How this is different from local taxes? When you stop paying taxes the trouble starts. The problem arises when there are competing "protectors."

To be fair, there’s also some due process when you’re not paying your taxes. In this case, I imagine that the process for dealing with non-payment is rather violent, inconsistent and chaotic.

I wouldn't imagine that. Violent, yes. Inconsistent, no.

>Inconsistent, no.

Is there a clearly laid out code that says what the penalty for non payment is? Does your car get keyed? window smashed? set ablaze? or do you get beat up?

You don’t think they’d treat you better if you were a family member of someone in the gang?

Or that you’d get different treatment if your local goon was a psycho or a softie?

I don't think either of those circumstances would disturb a description of the system as "consistent".

If the local goon is too harsh or too soft, he'll be replaced by a goon more in line with the values of the organization.

(Assuming you are not trolling and asking this genuinely)

I can vote for local taxes - either directly via ballot propositions in California or indirectly by electing the people who will decide these taxes. Can I vote for the mafia here?

There is a predictability with taxes - I know exactly how much I am going to pay, how and when the tax rate is going to change etc. Any change comes with sufficient notice and always subject to a democratic process which I can participate in (town halls, petitions to governments, elections). What is the predictability / process here?

Taxes are still constrained to the constitutional framework of the USA. And there is a clearly defined legislative process which people can follow in case they think taxes are unjust. Judicial rulings are enforced throughout the country. What is the process here to address my grievances? Is it predictable or subject to whims of the local mafia?

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