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Comment by genoapol | Hacker News Reader

Sounds like what the US & Canada did to Meng Wanzhou.

I don't think anyone would disagree that she's a pawn in a geopolitical struggle, but it also sounds like she absolutely and intentionally violated US law. There's pretty clear evidence, mostly in emails, of Huawei execs knowingly flaunting the export laws.

It's unclear if the westerners detained in China have committed crimes. I think their detention is a good example of what this warning is about. Detained for unclear reasons under broad state security rules with little presented evidence of crimes. Indefinite detention without any hope of a trial, kept in total isolation, without any formal representation.

Meng got her day in court, will the Michaels ever get that?

>I don't think anyone would disagree that she's a pawn in a geopolitical struggle, but it also sounds like she absolutely and intentionally violated US law

Someone that didn't visit the US was arrested for "breaking US law"...replace "US" with "China" and see how this sentence rings.

Why do you have to visit the country to commit crimes against that country? Isn't that how every sovereign nation state works?

The host country can choose not to extradite, but most countries generally accept this basic idea that sovereign nations can charge and warrant the arrest of individuals as pertinent.

If Assange leaked Chinese intelligence secrets, would he be free right now? I expect so.

I'm not sure the whole "China is uniquely evil" idea that is expressed in these comments stands up to even the smallest scrutiny.

There is a difference between China is 'uniquely evil' and 'China has an especially bad record on human rights and fair enforcement of the law.' Remember, in China there is pretty much no freedom of thought, including religion. And they are oppressing 3 large groups of people - Tibet, Xinjiang, and now Hong Kong. Of course it is not a binary good/bad thing, but some kind of false moral equivalence between China and Western countries is just as ridiculous and harmful.

The US has been oppressing indigenous people, black people, and communists for decades and decades. And crackdown on protests against equal application of the law for mainland and a territory after letting the protests run on for a whole year is barely controversial. Everyone should compare China against the West without seeing China as some unique evil.

The West has 100% done more "evil" if we're going by "oppression olympics". One can simply look at the violence exported by the respective groups. Also keep in mind how often America lies and sends agents to destabilize China (I'm sure vice-versa is also true yet Americans choose to blame Russians instead? Not sure why.). Now, I do not believe that is a fruitful or meaningful argument to have but your argument seems to come from a place of American exceptionalism over weighing both sides.

> If Assange leaked Chinese intelligence secrets, would he be free right now? I expect so.

Probably not, because he's made enemies of pretty much every country or nation state. Maybe Russia would take him in or something but the amount of geopolitical enemies he has is enormous.

> "China is uniquely evil"

I don't think anyone has expressed this. I think it's more, China is totalitarian with little respect for free speech, the rule of law and human rights, and often, arbitrary enforcement of laws. Before you say, "the US does this too!", it's true, but that's also a tu quoque" logical fallacy and is just gaslighting.

I really don't think the West has, currently, anything similar to their concentration camps or lack of religious freedoms.

She provided false statements and evidence to the US Government (and US banking entities) in order export US products to a sanctioned regime. All for a tidy profit.

So, while you're correct that she didn't commit a crime within the USA, she did commit one directly against US businesses and the US government.

As a non-American, I do find the extraterritoriality of US law very concerning, but I don't think this serves as a good example of overreach. She'd have been fine if she didn't enter a country with an extradition treaty with the US. That wasn't the smartest move.

Did you miss the part about holding innocent family members?

People who do not follow these developments as they happen will also miss that this state department release is one of John Bolton's pet projects. Most of US messaging on China under this administration should be taken with a grain of salt.

The two high profile cases that has any info, Sandra Han + Liu siblings (which triggered the warning), and Huang Wan, all has to do with father being caught with massive corruption charges in China and family members directly profited from i.e. Han + kids had multi-million dollar realestate holdings in the US under their names. Chinese corruption is typically a family affair. I haven't seen any cases that was unambiguous hostage taking.

The broader issue is many Chinese financial criminals flee to the west where they're safe from prosecution, the west benefits and extradition to PRC isn't on the table. So there's nothing China can do except to wait for the extra dumb one's to return or more commonly, or coerce those abroad to return by threatening innocent family members which to my knowledge has been limited to Chinese nationals. Exit bans seem to be reserved for those complicit in crimes. State department is reaching hard to to make it seem arbitrary when tldr is don't go to China if they want you for crimes, double for dissident activities.

At least Meng can hire lawyers etc. In China, there is no real law when it comes to anything political or economical, which are always mixed.

There is a serious problem with justice in the US though. We have in Norway seen cases of our citizens being unjustly imprisoned in the US through sham trials.

While the US has protected people doing serious crime in Norway.

I don’t defend China, but I wish the US held a much higher standard itself because it is hard for western countries to fight for justice and human rights when the US has such a poor record itself.

> There is a serious problem with justice in the US though. We have in Norway seen cases of our citizens being unjustly imprisoned in the US through sham trials.

Any links to support this?

> While the US has protected people doing serious crime in Norway.

Isn't that an indictment of the Norway justice system? Or would it be acceptable if Norway could protect its citizens in the United States?

I would very much like to see a citation on this, because I’ve certainly never heard of it if true.

I believe they are talking about Wikileaks.

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