AKA taking hostages.
AKA taking hostages.
We aren’t talking just about criminal or major offences here.
But it gets even worse. Imagine if you went to Poland, got into an argument with the manager of a factory there, and had your exist visa revoked. Imagine if someone from a state service showed up and told you, off the record, that you needed to hash things out to leave the country.
Isn't that pretty crazy? I think so.
The exist visa ban is a broad sweeping power than can be used by the state for almost any purpose.
They face a 99% conviction rate in the Chinese courts.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-china-charges-...
You be the judge.
Edit: more like 999 out of 1000 as per that wiki page:
> In China, the justice system has a conviction rate of 99.9% in 2014.
Also, that 93% number is Federal only. As per the link, the state numbers range (roughly) from the low 60's to the low 80's.
> In 2018, the Bureau of Justice Statistics reported that among defendants charged with a felony, 68% were convicted (59% of a felony and the remainder of a misdemeanor) with felony conviction rates highest for defendants originally charged with motor vehicle theft (74%), driving-related offenses (73%), murder (70%), burglary (69%), and drug trafficking (67%); and lowest for defendants originally charged with assault (45%).
China's rate in 2014 was 99.9%.
Japan also looks like it has a 99% conviction rate. Most countries have the ability to exit-ban foreigners visiting their country. It's not unique to China at all. US does it. Canada does it. South Korea does it.
I think the warning from the US Government is that, in their opinion, China will illegally detain you over made up charges, be careful.
Say what you want about Ghosn but, I'd GTFO too
It's unclear if the westerners detained in China have committed crimes. I think their detention is a good example of what this warning is about. Detained for unclear reasons under broad state security rules with little presented evidence of crimes. Indefinite detention without any hope of a trial, kept in total isolation, without any formal representation.
Meng got her day in court, will the Michaels ever get that?
Someone that didn't visit the US was arrested for "breaking US law"...replace "US" with "China" and see how this sentence rings.
The host country can choose not to extradite, but most countries generally accept this basic idea that sovereign nations can charge and warrant the arrest of individuals as pertinent.
I'm not sure the whole "China is uniquely evil" idea that is expressed in these comments stands up to even the smallest scrutiny.
Probably not, because he's made enemies of pretty much every country or nation state. Maybe Russia would take him in or something but the amount of geopolitical enemies he has is enormous.
> "China is uniquely evil"
I don't think anyone has expressed this. I think it's more, China is totalitarian with little respect for free speech, the rule of law and human rights, and often, arbitrary enforcement of laws. Before you say, "the US does this too!", it's true, but that's also a tu quoque" logical fallacy and is just gaslighting.
I really don't think the West has, currently, anything similar to their concentration camps or lack of religious freedoms.
So, while you're correct that she didn't commit a crime within the USA, she did commit one directly against US businesses and the US government.
As a non-American, I do find the extraterritoriality of US law very concerning, but I don't think this serves as a good example of overreach. She'd have been fine if she didn't enter a country with an extradition treaty with the US. That wasn't the smartest move.
While the US has protected people doing serious crime in Norway.
I don’t defend China, but I wish the US held a much higher standard itself because it is hard for western countries to fight for justice and human rights when the US has such a poor record itself.
Any links to support this?
> While the US has protected people doing serious crime in Norway.
Isn't that an indictment of the Norway justice system? Or would it be acceptable if Norway could protect its citizens in the United States?
The two high profile cases that has any info, Sandra Han + Liu siblings (which triggered the warning), and Huang Wan, all has to do with father being caught with massive corruption charges in China and family members directly profited from i.e. Han + kids had multi-million dollar realestate holdings in the US under their names. Chinese corruption is typically a family affair. I haven't seen any cases that was unambiguous hostage taking.
The broader issue is many Chinese financial criminals flee to the west where they're safe from prosecution, the west benefits and extradition to PRC isn't on the table. So there's nothing China can do except to wait for the extra dumb one's to return or more commonly, or coerce those abroad to return by threatening innocent family members which to my knowledge has been limited to Chinese nationals. Exit bans seem to be reserved for those complicit in crimes. State department is reaching hard to to make it seem arbitrary when tldr is don't go to China if they want you for crimes, double for dissident activities.