Comment by simonsarris | Hacker News Reader

Comment by simonsarris | Hacker News Reader

Note that US citizens have long been warned about stuff like this, especially exit bans. From the state department in 2018:

> Exercise increased caution in China due to the arbitrary enforcement of local laws and special restrictions on dual U.S.-Chinese nationals.

> Chinese authorities have the broad ability to prohibit travelers from leaving China (also known as ‘exit bans’); exit bans have been imposed to compel U.S. citizens to resolve business disputes, force settlement of court orders, or facilitate government investigations. Individuals not involved in legal proceedings or suspected of wrongdoing have also be subjected to lengthy exit bans in order to compel their family members or colleagues to cooperate with Chinese courts or investigators.

> U.S. citizens visiting or residing in China have been arbitrarily interrogated or detained for reasons related to “state security.” Security personnel have detained and/or deported U.S. citizens for sending private electronic messages critical of the Chinese government.

travel.state.gov archived from 2018: https://web.archive.org/web/20180112180843/https://travel.st...

> Chinese authorities have the broad ability to prohibit travelers from leaving China (also known as ‘exit bans’); exit bans have been imposed to compel U.S. citizens to resolve business disputes, force settlement of court orders, or facilitate government investigations. Individuals not involved in legal proceedings or suspected of wrongdoing have also be subjected to lengthy exit bans in order to compel their family members or colleagues to cooperate with Chinese courts or investigators.

AKA taking hostages.

Sounds like what the US & Canada did to Meng Wanzhou.

I don't think anyone would disagree that she's a pawn in a geopolitical struggle, but it also sounds like she absolutely and intentionally violated US law. There's pretty clear evidence, mostly in emails, of Huawei execs knowingly flaunting the export laws.

It's unclear if the westerners detained in China have committed crimes. I think their detention is a good example of what this warning is about. Detained for unclear reasons under broad state security rules with little presented evidence of crimes. Indefinite detention without any hope of a trial, kept in total isolation, without any formal representation.

Meng got her day in court, will the Michaels ever get that?

>I don't think anyone would disagree that she's a pawn in a geopolitical struggle, but it also sounds like she absolutely and intentionally violated US law

Someone that didn't visit the US was arrested for "breaking US law"...replace "US" with "China" and see how this sentence rings.

Why do you have to visit the country to commit crimes against that country? Isn't that how every sovereign nation state works?

The host country can choose not to extradite, but most countries generally accept this basic idea that sovereign nations can charge and warrant the arrest of individuals as pertinent.

If Assange leaked Chinese intelligence secrets, would he be free right now? I expect so.

I'm not sure the whole "China is uniquely evil" idea that is expressed in these comments stands up to even the smallest scrutiny.

There is a difference between China is 'uniquely evil' and 'China has an especially bad record on human rights and fair enforcement of the law.' Remember, in China there is pretty much no freedom of thought, including religion. And they are oppressing 3 large groups of people - Tibet, Xinjiang, and now Hong Kong. Of course it is not a binary good/bad thing, but some kind of false moral equivalence between China and Western countries is just as ridiculous and harmful.

The US has been oppressing indigenous people, black people, and communists for decades and decades. And crackdown on protests against equal application of the law for mainland and a territory after letting the protests run on for a whole year is barely controversial. Everyone should compare China against the West without seeing China as some unique evil.

The West has 100% done more "evil" if we're going by "oppression olympics". One can simply look at the violence exported by the respective groups. Also keep in mind how often America lies and sends agents to destabilize China (I'm sure vice-versa is also true yet Americans choose to blame Russians instead? Not sure why.). Now, I do not believe that is a fruitful or meaningful argument to have but your argument seems to come from a place of American exceptionalism over weighing both sides.

> If Assange leaked Chinese intelligence secrets, would he be free right now? I expect so.

Probably not, because he's made enemies of pretty much every country or nation state. Maybe Russia would take him in or something but the amount of geopolitical enemies he has is enormous.

> "China is uniquely evil"

I don't think anyone has expressed this. I think it's more, China is totalitarian with little respect for free speech, the rule of law and human rights, and often, arbitrary enforcement of laws. Before you say, "the US does this too!", it's true, but that's also a tu quoque" logical fallacy and is just gaslighting.

I really don't think the West has, currently, anything similar to their concentration camps or lack of religious freedoms.

She provided false statements and evidence to the US Government (and US banking entities) in order export US products to a sanctioned regime. All for a tidy profit.

So, while you're correct that she didn't commit a crime within the USA, she did commit one directly against US businesses and the US government.

As a non-American, I do find the extraterritoriality of US law very concerning, but I don't think this serves as a good example of overreach. She'd have been fine if she didn't enter a country with an extradition treaty with the US. That wasn't the smartest move.

At least Meng can hire lawyers etc. In China, there is no real law when it comes to anything political or economical, which are always mixed.

There is a serious problem with justice in the US though. We have in Norway seen cases of our citizens being unjustly imprisoned in the US through sham trials.

While the US has protected people doing serious crime in Norway.

I don’t defend China, but I wish the US held a much higher standard itself because it is hard for western countries to fight for justice and human rights when the US has such a poor record itself.

> There is a serious problem with justice in the US though. We have in Norway seen cases of our citizens being unjustly imprisoned in the US through sham trials.

Any links to support this?

> While the US has protected people doing serious crime in Norway.

Isn't that an indictment of the Norway justice system? Or would it be acceptable if Norway could protect its citizens in the United States?

I would very much like to see a citation on this, because I’ve certainly never heard of it if true.

I believe they are talking about Wikileaks.

Did you miss the part about holding innocent family members?

People who do not follow these developments as they happen will also miss that this state department release is one of John Bolton's pet projects. Most of US messaging on China under this administration should be taken with a grain of salt.

The two high profile cases that has any info, Sandra Han + Liu siblings (which triggered the warning), and Huang Wan, all has to do with father being caught with massive corruption charges in China and family members directly profited from i.e. Han + kids had multi-million dollar realestate holdings in the US under their names. Chinese corruption is typically a family affair. I haven't seen any cases that was unambiguous hostage taking.

The broader issue is many Chinese financial criminals flee to the west where they're safe from prosecution, the west benefits and extradition to PRC isn't on the table. So there's nothing China can do except to wait for the extra dumb one's to return or more commonly, or coerce those abroad to return by threatening innocent family members which to my knowledge has been limited to Chinese nationals. Exit bans seem to be reserved for those complicit in crimes. State department is reaching hard to to make it seem arbitrary when tldr is don't go to China if they want you for crimes, double for dissident activities.

I mean, is it really such a rare thing to do? I know that in Poland if you have any outstanding and overdue unpaid fines/alimonies/traffic tickets, you will be prevented from boarding a flight out of the country at any airport until those obligations are paid.

Detention for _civil_ offences or business disputes? Yes, that does not happen in most Western countries.

We aren’t talking just about criminal or major offences here.

Those examples are of civil infractions, which are not criminal offenses. So yeah, that would be weird. Maybe if you injured someone in a car accident or stole money.

But it gets even worse. Imagine if you went to Poland, got into an argument with the manager of a factory there, and had your exist visa revoked. Imagine if someone from a state service showed up and told you, off the record, that you needed to hash things out to leave the country.

Isn't that pretty crazy? I think so.

The exist visa ban is a broad sweeping power than can be used by the state for almost any purpose.

Did you miss the part about holding innocent family members?

You're missing the point. People are being accused for crimes they (more than likely) didn't commit and denied basic human rights.

They face a 99% conviction rate in the Chinese courts.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-china-charges-...

What do you think the conviction rates in western courts are? It's pretty close to 99% as well.

You literally just made that up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate

So is 93% (DoJ, 2012) far or close to 99%?

13 out of 14, or 99 out of 100.

You be the judge.

Edit: more like 999 out of 1000 as per that wiki page:

> In China, the justice system has a conviction rate of 99.9% in 2014.

No he didn't. The link itself shows both the lower 2018 percentages from the justice statistics bureau and also mentions the 2012 DOJ 93% rate. No clear explanation is given for the divergence over those years or how it fits together overall but he didn't lie about the source.

Re-read the part where they said "western courts".

Also, that 93% number is Federal only. As per the link, the state numbers range (roughly) from the low 60's to the low 80's.

In 2018, the Bureau of Justice Statistics reported that among defendants charged with a felony, 68% were convicted (59% of a felony and the remainder of a misdemeanor) with felony conviction rates highest for defendants originally charged with motor vehicle theft (74%), driving-related offenses (73%), murder (70%), burglary (69%), and drug trafficking (67%); and lowest for defendants originally charged with assault (45%).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate

Was curious, so looked it up:

> In 2018, the Bureau of Justice Statistics reported that among defendants charged with a felony, 68% were convicted (59% of a felony and the remainder of a misdemeanor) with felony conviction rates highest for defendants originally charged with motor vehicle theft (74%), driving-related offenses (73%), murder (70%), burglary (69%), and drug trafficking (67%); and lowest for defendants originally charged with assault (45%).

China's rate in 2014 was 99.9%.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate

>For 2012, the US Department of Justice reported a 93% conviction rate.

Japan also looks like it has a 99% conviction rate. Most countries have the ability to exit-ban foreigners visiting their country. It's not unique to China at all. US does it. Canada does it. South Korea does it.

I think the warning from the US Government is that, in their opinion, China will illegally detain you over made up charges, be careful.

There are very serious problems with the Japanese justice system [too].

'practices such as interrogating suspects without counsel or charge for up to 23 days'

Say what you want about Ghosn but, I'd GTFO too

Reply on news.ycombinator.com