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Having said that, a lot of criminal violence happens if you're mixed up in that world or frequenting a bad area as opposed to just random violence. There's something different about police violence where it has that random quality and can affect you anywhere, sometimes just minding your own business.
Plus it's doubly egregious because the police are supposed to protect you, not hurt you. Even before this became an issue, and as a white person, I get nervous with police interactions. You just don't know what kind of mood they're in or how they're interpreting the situation.
It's irrelevant to the real issue, but not to the upthread claim that blacks view police as the greatest threat. In the latter context, it is not irrelevant to point out that such a view does not seem to be in line with the evidence.
If only folks would listen to Black voices, they wouldn't be gumming up the conversation with irrelevance.
White on white crime is also much more prevalent than crime across racial boundaries. A priori you are much more likely to be a victim of crime by someone you know or in your immediate community. Because America is so segregated still, the conclusion follows pretty immediately.
This is, of course, as true as it is irrelevant. Because police can be 1/7th as likely to kill black people as non-police, and that's still far, far too many and a completely different category of murder (because the murderers are rarely punished, and are protected by the power of the state). Even if cops were 1/70th as likely to be the murderer of a black person, it's too many.
Some kinds of death are both avoidable and morally reprehensible for a society to allow or condone.
This page is a good summary of the relevant statistics: https://beehivemedia.com/dataviz/when_police_kill_in_black_a...
As you point out yourself, it doesn't necessarily if you consider the average black person. The average black person is not a gang member, not a criminal and doesn't hang out with those groups. It may very well be that for such a person the police are a bigger risk than criminals. It's simply that the massively higher violence amongst criminals shifts the overall numbers.
To evaluate whether or not that is true, we just need two numbers: (1) how many black people a year are killed by the police, and (2) how many black people a year are killed by random criminals.
It's hard to think of a good reason one would narrow #2 to just "black-on-black" crime if the goal is to show that the original statement is wrong.
It's also kind of irrelevant in another sense. People have been working on stopping crime for millennia and are still nowhere near figuring it out.
Police killings are something we might actually be able to do something about, so it makes sense to concentrate on them even if they are not actually the biggest immediate danger to individuals.
The race of the murderer was irrelevant to my point, and the difference between police killing versus getting murdered would have been even more pronounced had I included all murders.
I'm a little confused about your point about stopping crime. Surely it can't be stopped completely, but just as surely, some policies are more effective than others. For instance, ending the war on drugs would likely dry up funding for gangs.
Lack of police accountability and oversight is the problem - regardless of color combinations of the murder and the victim.
The portrayal of black people as prone to violence and incorrigibly dangerous goes beyond fiction and well into the past to the founding of the United States.
For one example, consider the United States' nominal newspaper of record, the New York Times.
Do an internet search using the following terms (no quotes) "NYTimes Giant Negro".
Stereotypes of blacks as intimidating and dangerous go beyond fiction and the end of the Twentieth Century into the domain of "reported facts" and well into the past.
Black people. "Blacks" sounds totally dehumanising.
As a black person, I'm grateful for this feedback. Thank you.
Sure, but pop culture in large part expresses and transmits preexisting stereotypes (and even when it doesn’t, it is perceived through the lens of those stereotypes.)
I'm not saying it's not involved, just that it's not the source.
Urban black communities had (and have) a lot of violence. That's a fact, not a stereotype.
The stereotype is that this is due to the inherently violent, unintelligent, morally inferior nature of Blacks.
You can choose to fear who you want to fear, I guess. But the numbers seem to suggest pretty much everyone should be more concerned about being murdered than being killed by police.
Being killed by police is more of a betrayal, for sure. For that reason it might be worse in some sense. But I'm not sure why that should result in disproportionate fear on the order of 20X.
Also, I should say that it's much harder to pin down how many murders police prevent.
Because if you successfully defend yourself from a murderer you have a rightful plea to self defense.
If you successfully defend yourself from a cop trying to murder you. You will be lucky with life without the possibility of parole. There is an implicit cannot flee cannot fight in an interaction with a law enforcement officer. So pretty much your natural fight or flight is neutralized and that is a hell of a situation to be in.
Society is disquietingly tolerant of murder when the murderer is wearing a badge and executing a suspect "In the line of duty."
If not for the nationwide protests, it is extremely likely the murderers of George Floyd would still be employed by their police departments, forget arrested.
I agree.
But the original post seemed to be saying that it was rational for blacks to be carefree about criminals and afraid of police, which just doesn't seem in line with the data.
And it's also disquieting how little people seem to care about murder victims, who are much more numerous and also disproportionately black (by a greater factor than the disproportionate killings by police). Those black lives matter, too.
Police officers are instantly recognizable. If you're statistically more likely to be harmed by the police than by a regular person then it is completely rational to be concerned when you see one.
It's part of the story, though. The incident in the linked article started because a group of teens jumped another and stole his phone. If that's happening 10x as often then innocent kids in that neighborhood are going to be 10x as likely to be swept up in police action.
https://twitter.com/michaelharriot/status/126846376828518809...
- "Locking Up Our Own", James Foreman, an analysis by a black attorney discussing black crime, black recidivism and black involvement as attorneys and judges in the criminal justice system
- "In Contempt", Christopher Darden, an autobiography written by one of the attorneys in the OJ Simpson trial where swaths of the book are dedicated to Darner's views and interactions with other attorneys who tackled "black on black crime" in LA during the 90's prior to his time as a District Attorney
- "The Man Not" (the most recent publication in this non-exhaustive list), Tommy Curry, explorations on the victimization of black men by their black guardians, with some focus on sexual abuse and exploitation of their bodies as the lens through which Curry focuses a larger critique
- "Negroland", Margo Jefferson, a memoir of the black elite class of Chicago and ramifications of black success experienced sometimes at the expense of lower-class black Americans, perpetuated sometimes by upper-class black Americans
I'm a bit fatigued by the insinuation that black America is shirking a responsibility to tackle these in-group issues, because it's not as if there's a lack of poignant critical theory emerging from our group on the topic. It's all there and readily available, and the names and reference content I provided here isn't an exhaustive list either.
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Caveat lector: If we agree.
I don't agree with this idea that the statistics of criminality in the black community is a proxy for anything, and more that it is a result of multiple compounding issues that snowballed throughout generations of peoples bringing us to where we are today. In your mind what is this a proxy for? I'd like to hear this notion unpacked.
Those questions are varied and nuanced and their answers are equally varied and nuanced, and against the backdrop of exactly how certain members of the constabulary execute (pun most certainly and deliberately intended) violence in response to violence are people like me trying to desperately point at as this the topic we want to discuss when we say "Black Lives Matter", yet time and time again we have to stop and have the "black people commit more crimes" discussion with people who are focused on the math of crimes committed while black at the expense of just about any other valid variable in the equation.
So if we take the "black people commit more crimes" framework on its face, does that mean they deserve to die for all of them? Did Sandra Bland really need to be shot because she didn't want to put out a cigarette at a traffic stop or could the officer have written her the moving citation she probably actually deserved, and gone about his policing elsewhere?[0] Did Eric Garner need asphyxiation for a civil citation when he was stopped for selling illegal cigarettes? Did George Floyd need to have a knee on his neck for nearly 10 minutes for a counterfeit $20?
I challenge us all to think beyond just "well they committed a crime" and start asking some hard goddamn questions about what we're saying if that's going to be the response to critical theories of criminal justice-because many (not all) of the names commonly shouted out in discussion about police brutality committed petty offenses that should have received citations but instead received death sentences; highlighting a severely disproportionate view of policing scofflaws that breaks "well they broke the law" down into "contempt of cop"[1].
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[0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/07/2...
Criminality, like I said.
I don't see anywhere in your post where you actually addressed the point I made. Again, that is if Black people commit X times as many crimes we should expect X times as many negative police interactions. Whether that be excessive violence or innocents being swept up in police action or anything else.
From this, allow me to make my position more clear:
No, we shouldn't "expect" an increase in police violence in response to black criminality, because it assumes violence is the appropriate and proportionate State response to deviant criminal behavior when often it is neither appropriate nor proportionate nor even necessary. Again, Sandra Bland: died during a traffic stop; George Floyd and Eric Garner died during Terry[0] stops. Breonna Taylor died while she was asleep. Cite for me the case law that admonishes an escalation of physical force to issue civil citations and I will consider the point earnestly and openly.
Furthermore, we need to narrow the scope and find an actionable definition for "officer safety" as many LEOs use as a defense against misconduct charges.
Resisting arrest should not be a death sentence, officers should be trained better and dealt with far more swiftly (it took nearly three months for an officer who blind-fired into Breonna Taylor's house to even be disciplined by his precinct and still has not faced charges[1]). If I blind fired my weapon onto the streets and bullets went into someone's home, I'd be arrested and charged. If I blind fired my weapon unprovoked as a member of the armed services, as I formerly was, I'd be court marshaled faster than the SR-71 can fly for failure to follow rules of engagement.
Public peace officers shouldn't be held to any lesser of a standard.
Your premise is therefore addressed, but rejected on merits.
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[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_stop
[1] https://blavity.com/officer-brett-hankison-will-be-fired-fro...
Why do you consider it okay for police to stop and harass innocent people with no evidence simply because they live in a certain neighborhood?
Bring up racism and police brutality though and people strongly deny it's a problem.
Everything else is beneath notice of the wider society. It's talked about, but no one outside of the community is listening. Which is fine, except when they base their response to the issues on which they do pay a little attention to assumption that what they aren't hearing on other issues is because it's not being talked about.
But that's beside the point. We fear the police because they operate with impunity, and especially so among black people.
- https://www.vox.com/2016/4/28/11510274/black-on-black-crime-...
- https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2016/07/27/wh...
- https://www.amazon.com/Ghettoside-True-Story-Murder-America-...
In addition, according to the Bureau of Justice statistics, while blacks in the absolute cause 50% of the violent crime, when you control for income (white people have 10x the wealth) and location (rural, suburban, urban, etc) white people actually commit about 5% more violent crime i.e. poor urban white people commit more violent crime than poor urban black people.
People need to start understanding these facts, remove old narratives and realize there's more interesting things to focus on than race its self.
> Although half of the people shot and killed by police are white, black Americans are shot at a disproportionate rate. They account for less than 13 percent of the U.S. population, but are killed by police at more than twice the rate of white Americans
Pointing out that the point is the frequency and not absolute numbers. Yes, of course, murders by people within one's own community are most common (for people in any community). Domestic murders in particular are by far the most common. Does this make the police murder rate acceptable?
It also doesn't make fear of police in any way misplaced when the rate is more than twice the rate for black than for white (stat also taken from the source you provided).
That's a slightly confusing wording. More whites are killed by police than blacks, but due to the difference in the general population, the proportion of blacks killed by police is about 2-3X.
Nothing makes a police murder rate "acceptable" in the abstract, we should always try to improve on it, assuming we don't make something else worse. For instance, if we eliminate police, we will eliminate murders by police. But murders by others might increase by even more (I say "might" because it's hard to get exact numbers, so I'm just speculating), which would be a net loss.
The point about domestic murders is a good one, but I'm not sure if that applies to high-crime areas very well. For instance, over 100 people were shot in Chicago last weekend, and 14 died.
Even if tigers are really scary when you meet one, I am not afraid to go outside because I might get eaten by a tiger.
I guess we could do a lot of subgroup analysis here and try to figure out based on day of the week and the route you are taking how much of your fear should be allotted to police versus allotted to criminals. But you start with the big, easy-to-find numbers and do a basic sanity check. I don't think being carefree about criminals and afraid of police is rational in very many situations.
On the other hand, I’ve seen more than enough people being arrested for nonsense, having done nothing but tick an officer off in some apparently random way - and these people will always be released immediately before the police would have to explain to a judge why they had arrested this person. Being detained is plenty scary enough, and could cost you your job.
But interactions with police are less likely to go smoothly if you're black, and you're more likely to have those interactions, so the perceived threat is real, it's like being into extreme sports.
So I guess that is my assessment of black life in America...it's an "extreme sport" and it shouldn't be.
I am white and I have never once had a "good" interaction with a cop. Quite the opposite.
Actually, I am pretty sure there is a massive difference in experience with cops if you are a white woman vs a white man.
Whereas if I'm a Black individual, especially in a poor area that's over policed, I won't be able to pay for bail, and won't be able to afford a good lawyer if I'm pinned for murder. Over 90% of cases are settled by plea bargains, where the defendant will take a guilty sentence if it results in less jail time.
https://twitter.com/michaelharriot/status/126846376828518809...
It is also something exacerbated by the war on drugs, the criminal justice system and deap-seated discrimination. Police seems like a pretty good place to start fighting.
On complex topics is when it's most important to be clear about a point, rather than just throwing out a few data points and simplistic conclusions.
My point was that misplaced fear (e.g. not supported by data) has its own risks, and fear is probably not the right emotion for injustice anyway (anger makes more sense). The point may be right or wrong when the totality of the data is examined.
On HN, this could have been a productive discussion but my comment was a distraction. Next time I'll ask a question instead.
I'm assuming your username is an unfortunate coincidence.
In one example, you can fight back legally and protect yourself. You can be confident if found they'll go to jail. You can be confident that they have to hide who they are.
In another example you may not fight back legally and protect yourself. They will likely not go to jail. You know exactly who they are and they keep coming around your neighborhood.
We need systems in place to make people safe because of and from the people who police our streets.
Anyway, the presumption that any group should meet some standard before being deemed worth of justice is utterly repulsive.
its that one
Cops do their crimes with impunity. If a non-cop harms you or kills someone, it is at least possible for them to be caught, then brought to justice.
Depending on circumstance, one can combat or run away from a non-cop threat without being hunted down and kidnapped. Hell, even a non-cop street gang would have to recognize you and have the energy to come after you, vs. the cops that have the full force of government behind them.
Cop violence does not equal non-cop violence.