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Comment by gambiting | Hacker News Reader

I honestly don't understand or know anyone who would move to the US now. I have a few friends who were considering it but it's a very firm no at this point, and they all had offers from the big firms in Silicone Valley. Sure, your compensation in UK or Germany won't reach the stratospheric levels of US programmers, but as a competent engineer you can easily reach very comfortable levels of living, buy a house, brand new car, afford to have a couple kids and save some money for fun. And you won't have to deal with the insanity of American healthcare, immigration or politics.

I grew up thinking that my dream would be to move to US one day - nowadays there probably isn't an offer that would make me move there.

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My wife is Canadian and I'm American, and we've spent time in both countries. She summed it up very well: the US is a great place to live if you make above a certain amount of money. I.e., it's better for the upper classes at the expense of the lower classes.

> nowadays there probably isn't an offer that would make me move there.

I concur. For a start, here in Europe, I don't have to worry each day that someone is going to run amok in my children's school with semi-automatic weapons. You can't place a value on that.

I know fears are irrational, but the probability of your kids being killed by a mass shooter at school in the US is extremely low. Logically, if you’re worried about that level of risk, you should never leave the house, even in Europe.

The sibling commentator mentioned Islamic terrorism which I think is a good analogy. You would probably think it was ludicrous (and I’d agree with you) if someone said they didn’t want to move to Europe because they have to worry about being run down by someone in a truck.

So I wanted to offer my view on this - I know that the risk of actual shooting is so low that it's not worth worrying about. But what I'd definitely have an issue with is the entire security theatre that American kids are subject to - the fact that many American schools have metal detectors at the doors, the fact that their bags are searched when entering, the fact that many schools have armed security or even policemen on campus - that's crazy to me and I wouldn't want to subject my kids to any of that. It normalizes something that's very very wrong in my opinion.

Metal detectors and bag searches are not the norm in American suburbs. Post school shootings, the changes made in my district were that the front door is locked by default and you need to ring the bell and be buzzed in.

What is the norm though is a "do something, anything" mentality that has led school districts to dump billions into unproven initiative after unproven initiative, from macbooks to netbooks to SROs to anterooms and buzzers on a neverending keeping up with the times treadmill of pointless education reform.

That is an exaggerated fear to have, school shootings are not the norm there.

That would be like saying you're afraid of the Islamic terrorism amok on the streets of Europe.

You're right, they're not the norm. But is it not correct to say that mass shootings very much are?

> That is an exaggerated fear to have, school shootings are not the norm there.

Nearly once a week in 2019 (https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/15/us/2019-us-school-shootin...). March 2020 was the first March since 2002 to pass without a single school shooting thanks to the 'rona lockdowns (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-first-march-without...).

> That would be like saying you're afraid of the Islamic terrorism amok on the streets of Europe.

Whole Europe has had 1 incident in 2019, 7 in 2018 and 10 in 2017/2016. Even with record 17 incidents in 2015, five years of Islamist terror together don't even come close to one average year of school shootings in the US, and are a blip compared to one year of mass shootings in the US.

Please don't use CNN as a source. They are intentionally inflating the number.

We included accidental discharge of a firearm...

We included injuries sustained from BB guns...

Neither of those would scenarios would fall under what most people view as a "school shooting".

It's not literally as low as the risk of falling victim to a terror attack in Europe, but statistically the risk is pretty much negligible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_th...

Of course, morally the risk is unacceptable. I would consider one school shooting a year too high. Let alone the 17 deaths due to guns in schools in 2019.

And as was pointed out previously, the security theater (shooter drills, etc) are traumatizing. I am appalled at this aspect of America.

But, despite what you see on the news, most Americans are not exposed to guns on any kind of a regular basis.

As far the school deaths, they are appalling but I am sure many more children die each year due to asthma attacks, food allergies, etc. I do not excuse our gun situation but it should be viewed in perspective. Again, I do agree that one gun death is too many.

My image of the US has changed substantially over the last few years. I never saw it as a issues free country but nowadays it just looks worse than ever.From aside it looks like a family where it's members reached middle age crisis,told all their neighbours to sod off, kicked children in the teeth and trying to tear each other apart.

The US hasn't changed. These issues were always here. We're forced to confront them in a very direct way now, which rips off any facades built up about being "issues free." This is the "pain" part of "no pain no gain." Hopefully, as a country we're able to grow and become better the same way we did in the 60s, the last time it seems we had an equivalent/stronger "bandaid ripping off" moment. From personal experience, I vastly prefer a country like the US where these issues are being dragged front and center and exposed than other parts of the world where these same ugly facets of humanity exist, but people pretend they don't.

Isn't housing in the major EU cities (London / Paris / Berlin ) all very expensive and comparable to SF / NY in terms of multiples of average programmer salary? The healthcare is definitely a big advantage though.

Hahaha, I literally just addressed exactly this point in my other comment - sure, London is insanely expensive, as is SF. There is more to any of these countries outside of the capitals, just like there is more to US outside of SF.

Why is European healthcare an advantage for people in professional software engineering jobs? All such people have health insurance in the US.

Because it's not all about you. It's about your parents, your friends, your family who are not :gasp: software engineers, and it's nice not having to worry about them going bankrupt or homeless if they need x life-saving medical procedure or they loose their job.

It can be impractical to take your parents, your friends, and your extended family along with you to another country. It's certainly far more difficult than getting a job there as a software engineer, particular because of countries preferring to allow highly skilled, educated, and/or paid people in preferentially.

About 10 years ago I knew a guy who had to turn down an amazing opportunity at another company because one of his kids had a pre-existing condition. This boggled the minds of us non-Americans where healthcare is not linked to your employer. I don't know what it's like today as I have not kept up with what ACA built and what the Republicans have dismantled piece by piece.

I've never heard of a company making pre existing conditions a problem to get health insurance. If you didn't have coverage through your job you had problems, but if your coverage came from you job there generally weren't restrictions like that.

I personally wouldn't want to contribute to such system, simple as that. But also - in (almost all of) EU you're always covered no matter what. You don't have to worry about what happens if you lose your job, or move jobs, or need extra time off work, or accidentally go to the wrong hospital or call the wrong ambulance - it's just not a concern for your average citizen at all. These concerns are obviously worse for immigrants coming to work since their insurance will be very much tied to their employment.

I know enough people who've ended up with long-term illnesses that have put them out of work… and sure, their professional software engineering job provided them with healthcare for a number of months after the employment ended, but then… then they had almost nothing and in all but one case ended up bankrupt.

Every single software job I've seen include several disability insurance offerings for free.

For example, if I can't work, I get 70% of my salary in long-term disability

Does that typically cover healthcare costs as well?

Berlin is a lot cheaper than any of Australian cities, from what I saw. There are a lot more expensive cities in Europe though, like even Münich if you want a German example.

This may be true in parts of Europe, but it's not so clear cut in Canada. We have a decent tech job market in our 3 major cities (Montreal/Vancouver/Toronto), but it's mostly bad elsewhere. There are a few lower-tier Canadian cities which are OK (Waterloo, Ottawa), but as cities they're grossly limited compared to where you can live in Europe.

Of the 3 major Canadian cities, only Montreal could be considered affordable to software engineer. Vancouver/Toronto are extremely expensive vs. local pay. Unless you want to sign yourself up for a punishing daily commute or bought your house a long time ago, it's hard to describe the standard of living as "very comfortable" other than compared to lower earners in the local market.

Tellingly, when you look at the data more than 100% of Toronto's population growth comes from international migration. Which makes sense, it's a very welcoming place. But without immigration, the city would have shrunk by 50k people last year (~1.5% of population).

>[...]Germany[...]buy a house

Unless you get financial support from your (grand)parents, you can forget about that as houses in the nice areas are closing in on the million euro ballpark and IC salaries there are a joke for such a purchase.

I don't know why people immediately assume that when I say "buy a house" I mean "buy a house in the middle of London/Berlin/Paris". Can your average SF programmer afford to buy a house in the middle of SF?

I know people working for instance in Stuttgart - buying a house in the smaller towns nearby is not an issue at all according to them. I personally live in the UK and sure, London prices are insane - but we don't live in London. Me and my wife bought a house after saving just for a few months[0], the prices are very achievable for an average programmer.

[0]mortgaged, obviously. But since the prices are lower it was "easy" to save for a deposit and get a mortgage. We're literally paying £600/month on a mortgage for a 3-bed house with a large garden and double driveway. That's an almost insignificant part of my salary.

No disrespect, but houses in Germany are a lot more expensive than in the UK. If you own a 3 bedroom house and two driveways in Germany you're basically a millionaire.

And by "nice house" I didn't mean a house in the center of a major city but a house in the suburbs in a quiet, green area with good schools.

Average prices for a house in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern: Between 250k and 500k, depending on housing type. Position is king, even here in Germany.

Right, that's fair enough - I'm just saying what I know from my family and friends who live around Stuttgart, in both CS industries and out of them. They own houses without being millionaires, maybe it's something about Stuttgart specifically.

Can your average SF programmer afford to buy a house in the middle of SF?

If you define average as a FAANG programmer, then yes, the average one could buy a house in SF.

  If you define average as a FAANG programmer,

But that would be silly, as the FAANG pool is far from the average. Average SF programmer salaries are still in the low 100s from the last numbers I saw (a few years out of date). Even with two of those in a household, you aren't buying in SF.

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