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Comment by freshhawk | Hacker News Reader

As a non-american it's weird/funny/interesting/infuriating/typical to watch Americans get very upset and paranoid about Russians or Chinese actors doing the things that American actors do, and have done for decades now, in my country, and many others, all the time.

I know the spin is for an American audience, but it does occur to y'all how funny it sounds outside your country right?

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The answer is that, by and large, it doesn't occur to them. I'm a Canadian who spent my college years in America, and was honestly completely aghast at the whole society and most especially how it is reflected in their media and public "discourse" (culture≠media, yes, but it's disingenuous to say that the constant diet of vitriol, propaganda, and pure unreason would have no effect on the national character). It genuinely doesn't occur to them (generally): the country is myopic, and hypocrisy means nothing when you're ignorant of any inconsistency.

(Queue the whataboutism, or deflection, or whichever fallacy of the day)

As a Canadian who has lived in the US is it all that different?

What I’ve observed is the US is very upfront and unapologetic about it. While countries like Canada and those in the EU are much more discrete.

Take Omar Khadr for example. Canada was more than happy to help the US with that “terrorist”, no questions asked. While at the same time “tsk tsk-ing” about how the US is handling the situation.

The hypocrisy is something else.

Oh yeah, absolutely. The whole world order is broken, and I'm not at all happy with Canada's milquetoast responses to myriad issues (Omar Khadr, yes, but also not more strongly responding to the Uighur's treatment, or dealing with our own racism, or our own policing issues, etc etc etc). Re public discourse specifically it's a matter of degree though, and my real experience is that I've been able to have more reasonable conversations with those I disagree with here (and in Europe) than would've been conceivable there, even though all mentioned societies harbour evils. I certainly don't mean to discount the numerous problems that Canada and other countries have, and I have no pleasure in bashing America (rather, I'm deeply, deeply sad to feel this way about a country that I was taught as a child represented ideals of justice and opportunity). I more meant that I'm not at all hopeful for nonviolent progress in America, given the impossibility of discourse and cultural disdain for self-reflection or external perspective, whereas I still hold hope for other societies that (maybe too optimistically) are broken but not irreparably

Sorry if that's too depressed, but it's my genuine impression :( for context, I left the States to do my grad studies elsewhere, having been seriously depressed by my inability to effect any meaningful change (volunteering to teach low-income children only does so much good in a system that keeps them low income; peaceful protest is ignored; organizing philanthropy has benefits but ignores root issues; I ran into institutional barriers at every step). I'm in Canada now, and while I'm still fighting against the same injustices and remain supremely disappointed in the national and world state of affairs, I feel much less hopeless here, and that I have been able to do more (although not nearly enough) good without being stymied in a system that quashes discourse by default

That's definitely true, America is leading the charge in the "mask off" era.

That is a good point. Canada and Europe have the same problems mostly, not as bad (sometimes not nearly as bad), but hide it much more carefully. And there is a lot of misplaced pride in being "better than the US" for things where that is the lowest bar.

Expanding on that, I think the “mask off” thing is why Trump got elected.

Rather than a smooth talker politician who lies to you with a smile on their face, Trump drops the pretense. He’s an asshole and doesn’t try and hide it.

Lets not equate what the Russians and the Chinese are doing with what the US does. Yes, the CIA did horrible things, but that is now a long time ago. Russians are still poisoning their defectors, the Chinese are running concentration camps today. That's all of a very different order, not to say for a very different purpose, however misguided.

The US has concentration camps today. Source: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/07/border-fac...

The CIA still drone strikes weddings. Source: https://www.newsweek.com/wedding-became-funeral-us-still-sil...

These things are still happening.

While awful in their own right, it's important to understand the difference in both scale and reason between such border camps and e.g. Uyghur camps.

Let me get this straight, you’re saying that the US holding foreigners in detention centers, who are asking for asylum, is the same as rounding up all Muslims and putting them in camps because they are Muslim?

CIA did horrible things, but that is now a long time ago.

The CIA is very much alive today. They are still very active in Latin America, in Europe and in Asia. If you believe they are no longer doing 'horrible things', we have lots and lots of bridges for you to buy.

No, I'm equating it. As do most people around the world. You should read more varied news sources.

"did" ... peak american move there.

The reason we're upset is that we think the Russian and Chinese governments are very bad and don't want them to have any influence. Nobody gets worked up about foreign influence operations from, like, France or Japan.

France and Japan don't try to influence in the same way that Russia and China do. The difference in the kind of operations matters.

Yeah, here either, we're mostly concerned with Russia, China and the US.

I never though about how you folks have one less election tampering aggressive state to worry about actually, and it's the one that spends the most too.

Must be nice.

You might be surprised that some people consider the US gov pretty bad as well. Just watch the news.

Sure, but it doesn’t make it any less true.

Every country does this, this being industrial espionage. And yes, like spying, people bitch about others doing it when they do it themselves.

You have to remember it’s all politics. It’s not like the US govt is really shocked this is happening, it’s just that they’ve decided to do something about it. And like all diplomacy, you need a good cover, so the US cover is “can you believe what China did?”.

Meddling in elections was the reference i was making mostly.

I'm not talking about industrial espionage, I mean culture war propaganda shit and American dollars ending up used for lobbying and political campaigns mostly.

It doesn't sound funny at all given how much Chinese and Russian influence have murdered scores of innocent people, disappearing journalists, undermining elections, rolled over basic human rights, engaged in abhorrent labor practices, etc. What part of that do you find funny?

"As a non-American", it would be helpful to know where you are, because I don't think there's anyone in Europe is thrilled about Russian influence/oppression over the past, oh, 70 years. Nor China's human rights abuses and sphere of Influence in Asia, Africa, or even Latin America's equally despotic regimes such as Pinochet.

So forgive us if it sounds funny, we've only been fighting these oppressive forces on your behalf for a very, very long time.

Disliking the politics of the US doesn't mean you become pro-China or pro-Russia obviously, that's absurd.

"we've only been fighting these oppressive forces on your behalf for a very, very long time."

Gross. That's as polite as I can be there and it's difficult.

"Pinochet" Are you trolling or do you not know which nearby superpower is responsible for installing him. Perfect example though, of the kind of fighting being done on "my behalf"

I prefer to have my cake and eat it too. Is that too much to ask?

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