The same absurd comparisons also come up when entitled people people try to talk about poverty when it’s clear they have never seen poverty in the US, much less in an economy where people earn less than $5 per day working 5x harder.
The same absurd comparisons also come up when entitled people people try to talk about poverty when it’s clear they have never seen poverty in the US, much less in an economy where people earn less than $5 per day working 5x harder.
One way is to think "wow, those people have had very different experiences from me, to drive them to do that." I'd put your reply in that category and I prefer this. It recognizes shared commonality among people, which is a good place to start for constructive change.
The other way is to think "wow, those people are nothing like me, to want to do something like that." This treats differences as inherent and implies there are different "types" of people. It creates a sense of "us vs them," which makes it harder to build the empathy necessary for constructive change.
A designer handbag store to me perfectly exlemplifies a completely broken tax system and citizens being held hostage by a corrupt government and corporations defending their interests.
I sympathize with people who would want to damage that system in any way available to them.
I wouldn't do that particular act myself, but I also recognize that I've been very lucky to not have been one of the people who has suffered at the hands of such a broken system. Lucky I had good parents, good health and good education. The system has failed others, and shows no signs of self-correction without intervention.
Otherwise, right on. I can't tell you how often I come to dead ends in arguments regarding poverty and crime, where folks who've never been poor or desperate give themselves 100% of the credit for their good fortune. Like they picked their fucking parents before birth.
This is such a stupid argument. The only thing violence, vandalism and theft "accomplish" is further retrenchment of police power. It turns otherwise sympathetic people against the protests, and makes it much harder for policy makers to justify police reform to the huge part of the population whose quiet racist and classist biases were just confirmed by the looters.
If anythin's going to spur change from this particular upheaval, it will the hundreds of videos recording police brutality against peaceful demonstrators.
Either we have looters in this thread, or the movement is a big umbrella that encompasses the unsavourable elements too.
Looting and vandalism don't hurt corporations. The corporations have insurance and can rebuild. Looting destroys livelihoods of people who often can't recover, accelerates the decay of already struggling neighborhoods.
- Taking the self-immolator's experiences and actions as sample sets, they are different from the 'stereotypical American' by a statistically significant margin.
- This does not mean that the cause is that the self-immolator is categorically different from the 'stereotypical American' (because correlation does not necessarily imply causation), in fact, it suggests that the experiences and actions may be related.
Living in a third world country means you probably are dealing with a (semi) dictatorship. That means there's only a few entities (eg regime, government, whatever) that you can assign the blame to.
Therefore, you can light yourself on fire in protest to them.
In the U.S. who would you light yourself to protest to? Elected congress? Elected government? Wall Street? Supreme Court?
Unfortunately when system gets rigged and gamed in a democracy it's really difficult to untangle the mess.
This also has a secondary effect: In these countries people are not so divided. They have a common enemy: The dictator [0].
Source: Anecdotal experience based in years of life in a third world country and the U.S.
[0] This is an oversimplification as even the dictators have support of a big chunk of the population to rely on.
I think there's some truth to this, but I think this eventually results in widespread cynicism, skepticism and loss of trust towards any sort of institution (aka "the system") in general --including science and religion--, which is a perfect environment for fake news and conspiracy theories. Long term it leads to chaos and unrest too.
Conversely I think in more volatile arenas, the power dynamics while large, are less so (logically this makes sense because a revolution that can win is closer in power to the system they are fighting). While this volatility may be worse overall in that society, it is less systematically oppressive than say a rigged democracy deeply meshed into a non-democratic economic system.
The more I think about it the more my nihilism takes hold and I find that very disheartening.
I feel that comparing the suffering of such an individual to the suffering of people who actually burned themselves to protest the oppression they experienced is insulting to the sacrifice of the later.
I agree with the sentiment of the protests in the USA, but there is no need to invent fictional martyrs who “could have been”.
I think it's insulting to all that we even feel the need to compare. This perhaps counterintuitively amplifies divisions, when we want to unite.
Hundreds of millions of people lived through the Arab Spring - not "somebody somewhere". Many of them watched their country descend in unprecedented violence that cannot be compared to tear gas and pepper spray.
To them, those are indeed first world problems.
Protesters in Syria were slaughtered with machine gun and anti-aircraft fire. Protesters in Iraq were fired on with machine guns. Protesters in Egypt were killed by snipers from the roof tops, exploded in bombs, and then jailed and quietly executed. Protesters in Libya were massacred by the army - and then by terrorists. Protesters in Iran were shot, arrested, and disappear. AND THEN three of those countries fell into civil war.
As bad as things may seem in the US, they don't even compare to what happens in other countries. How many innocent black Americans were killed by police in any given year? 10? out of 300 million people? ....oh, and the police involved have been arrested and charged?
Please forgive the civilians in Syria who were bombed with nerve gas for not sympathizing - their civil war is still going on - almost 10 years now.
I'll try one more time: it should be possible to empathize with the plights of many people, not only the ones who are worst off. Obviously some people have it worse than others, I hope I've made my acknowledgement of that clear. What I don't find productive is telling some people you don't care about their problems because other people have it much worse.
If it was literally every other person in human history other than those in the present day United States...
...it still wouldn't have any bearing on discussion of the injustices in the United States. It's nothing more than an irrelevant distraction technique.
(And while it's a valid example of the general issue, no one before you raised immediate issues IN THE US.)
> Please forgive the civilians in Syria who were bombed with nerve gas for not sympathizing
Literally no one is asking for that. There is a difference between suggesting that, e.g., the Syrian experience you describe is irrelevant as a deflection in a discussion among people who are subject to, and responsible-as-citizens-for-their-governments-actions in the present problems in the US and suggesting that those American problems ought to be a concern for the victims of the violence in Syria.
I would suspect most people in the current American protest movement, while gratified by the support that has been shown in numerous other first world and even some developing nations, weren't looking for international attention and don't particularly think that it ought to be an urgent concern for people who are neither subject to nor responsible, even in the sense of the Democratic responsibility of citizens, for it.
Of course it would. Because our resources for charity and good will should not be solely given to Americans. There are far far more needy people outside America.
If you are trying to qualify who has it worse you aren’t focused on a materially objective outcome. For example many of the people protesting in the US in the past few weeks are trying to raise awareness of systemic racism and for police accountability (different issues, by the way). Most of those people aren’t asking for your sympathy because they are looking for impactful change which isn’t found in sympathy.
That so completely depends upon where you live. My big city of 900,000 people reported their highest measured homeless population ever in 2018 with a sizable jump to about 2000 people. That is tiny compared with many other similar sized cities.
Seeing homeless people, like stepping over a drunkard spilled out over a sidewalk, isn’t the same as diving into the research or getting into some of the personal stories.
A man is standing on a beach after a storm with the tide out, where there are thousands of starfish baking in the sun, slowly dying. The man is picking up the starfish one at a time, and throwing them into the ocean.
A bystander is walking by, and says, "Why are you doing that? There are thousands of starfish and it won't make a difference."
The man picks up another starfish and says, "To this one it matters," and throws it into the ocean.