Hacker News Reader

Comment by ketzo | Hacker News Reader

This is pretty awesome.

For those who haven't explored ergonomic keyboards, 1) you should! take care of your hands! and 2) shit gets preeeeetty wild out there.

For further reading, check out ortholinear keyboards like the Planck [1], or crazier split designs like the ErgoDox EZ [2], or even "keywell" (or just "pit") designs like the Kinesis Advantage2 [3]. All require a learning curve (obviously!), but they offer some pretty immediately noticeable (in my experience) advantages for your hand health.

One of my favorite design items are thumb clusters like you see on the last two links here: why should your thumb be limited to just spacebar, and why should both of your thumbs do the same thing?

[1] https://ergodox-ez.com/pages/planck [2] https://ergodox-ez.com/ [3] https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/

View on HN

I never understood why ortholinear keyboards aren't the standard. It's bizarre that the fingers on my left hand would move slightly to the left for the top row, but the fingers on my right hand would also move slightly to the left for the top row. And to the right, on both hands, for the bottom row. Fingers don't naturally move like that! My hands have mirror symmetry. Why doesn't my keyboard?

The number 6 exemplifies the problem. Touch-typing classes teach that it's pressed by the right hand, but the number row has drifted so far left that it's actually closer to the left hand. Sure enough, (non-ortho) split keyboards can't agree which side of the split to put it on. Sometimes even different models from the same company disagree.

Staggered keys is even crazier, to me, than QWERTY. There's no spending 2 weeks relearning where every letter is. There's no messing up spatial mnemonics like Z/X/C/V. It just instantly fixes your fingers from being slightly out of alignment.

And the craziest is when touchscreens do it. Keys were only staggered in that funny way to make room for the keylevers. Computer keyboards never had keylevers, but touchscreens really never had keylevers!

> I never understood why ortholinear keyboards aren't the standard.

Same as querty: it’s there so typewriter stamps don’t hit each other.

You aren't alone, the thing boggles my mind too. I like better staggered columns layout than ortholinear, but yeah staggered rows don't make any sense, I hate using the keyboard in my notebook.

Joking, I would say only Apple could find the "courage" to introduce columns staggered/ortholinear keyboards... ^__~

You joke, but I've wondered the same thing. Apple, of all companies, is happy to re-examine (or discard) the status quo. They dropped the headphone jack on many products -- as they said, it's "over 100 years old, used to help quickly exchange in switchboards". Yet their keyboards still look pretty much like a 19th-century Remington.

I would bet that if they dropped the staggered rows they would by followed by the rest of the industry in heartbeat.

Instead they put an OLED on it and in a single move they pissed off all the Vim users (or that's what I recall)... ^__^

You are holding your forearms at an angle. To reach things closer to your body, you move your right arm back and to the right. To reach things farther away, you reach up to the left.

So the question is, do you move only your finger when reaching for the number line, or move your whole lower arm?

I have not heard good things about the ergodox's thumb keys. A lot of people say you need to stretch your thumbs pretty far to use them (even if you have big hands), which kind of works against the goal of not putting stress on your hands.

I’ve got the classic ergodox (a couple) as well as the ergodox-ez. I’ve been using ergodox for 5-6 years now and have never had an issue with the thumb cluster, but it takes some getting used to, and there is certainly room for improvement.

I’m a huge fan of the split layout, and I feel that split layouts are probably a much more significant factor when it comes to reduction of hand stress.

I have an Ergodox-EZ. The issue with the thumb keys is that its only natural or easy to hit the bottom 3 for most people. Some people can only hit the bottom 2.

That being said, having 3 usable keys per thumb is a game changer IMO and its the best keyboard I've ever used by far. For the ones that are harder to hit I map stuff that I don't usually use often while typing like the escape key.

I'm working building a Dactyl manuform. After I printed the case I put the keys in the thumb cluster and threw some keycaps on it to see how it works. IMO its far easier to use all 6 of the keys on the Dactyl's thumb cluster.

Also, the dactyl is intended to be further customized per user, so you can actually find variants with less thumb cluster keys if for some reason you don't want them. Some people have even customized them to have trackball replace one of the thumb clusters.

It took me about 3 weeks to get reasonably fast and confident typing on my Ergodox, after about 6 weeks I was pretty close to my original speed (approximately 120 WPM). IMO its worth the effort to learn and I will never go back to a keyboard without at least 3 keys per thumb cluster.

There might be a more efficient layout, but what I use my easily accessible thumb keys for is space, return, backspace, win key/mac command and other modifiers.

For something pretty similar to the Ergodox but with a better thumb cluster, there's the Keyboardio. However, they sold out of the initial run and they are supposedly going to be releasing a new revision soon.

It seems it's very polarising.

I personally hate it and I find only a single key on the cluster is comfortable for me. I do have to do big stretches or move the whole hand for the other keys.

There are many better alternatives out there.

>There are many better alternatives out there.

Its just like buying an office chair or a pair of shoes. Its not that there are better alternatives, is more like everyone should find a keyboard that's comfortable and optimal for them as an individual. The Ergodox-EZ is a great keyboard, just not a great one for you.

BTW do you have really small hands? Based on the size of it and my experience I would assume that most people could comfortable hit the two larger keys on the thumb cluster, they are right next to each other.

You're right that it's subjective. I do think the Ergodox is much better than standard keyboards, I just find the large number of (for me) unused keys detrimental.

Yeah I have slightly smaller hands. I also have problems with my right thumb that makes me extra sensitive.

Btw if someone wants to compare the key positions of popular keyboards see this site: https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/

Here’s my best effort at fixing the Ergodox thumb section under the constraint of still using a flat sheet of laser-cut acrylic and standard sized keycaps.

https://i.imgur.com/puH1Ge4.jpg ; direct comparison https://i.imgur.com/OqSwVJo.png

It’s much more accessible, especially for people with small to normal sized hands; all 6 thumb keys on each side are comfortable and convenient (but the back corner thumb key does require the extra tall keycap, so it can be pressed without running into the key in front of it).

See https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62848 for extended analysis.

Yeah, I hated the ergodox-ez. The flat nature made for lots of awkward stretches, both in the thumb cluster and the middle columns accessible by the index finger. I switched to a kinesis advantage immediately after and have loved it to death since.

Concave, ortholinear keywells are the killer app in my experience, so the OP keyboard seems really interesting.

If you put non-flat keycaps on the ergodox (especially if the further rows have extra-tall keycaps) it gets a lot nicer to use. It also helps a lot to steeply “tent” the two sides, and experiment with their 3D orientation and position.

As a general rule, completely uniform keycaps should not be used unless either (a) the keyboard is built using a manufacturing process where the further keyswitches can be boosted higher up [e.g. IBM’s approach on the Model F/M with a curved barrel plate, Maltron’s vacuum formed plastic, or hand-wired 3d printed keyboards], or (b) there is literally no space for anything else, e.g. on a laptop.

The further rows should not be tilted away from the body though; the keystroke should still be in the same direction as the home row. The Kinesis advantage gets this wrong in my opinion, and the further away rows of keys are quite uncomfortable to use, especially the index finger number keys. The Kinesis thumb section is also in my opinion quite poorly placed and oriented. YMMV.

(The Ergodox thumb section is uncomfortable for many people’s hands in large part because Dox was closely copying the Kinesis.)

What keycap profile would you recommend? I saw this comparison[1] a while back, but not knowing what worked best (rather than looked prettiest) I still have the cheap DSA set.

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/2v9zf5...

DCS is a concave profile, and you can easily get at least a blank keycap set in this profile for the Ergodox. This is what I use. The Ergodox EZ site calls this profile "sculpted" I believe.

https://i.imgur.com/ykdNLsz.png

I was no as big of fan of SA. The keys are, in my opinion, needlessly tall; too tall for me given the wrist rests I used. I have been floating my wrists for a while now though, maybe I will give it another shot.

I still pivot at the elbow for reaching the small thumb cluster keys. I move my whole hand to reach the outer corners too. I keep infrequently used keys like function keys there. I have seen people's layouts where they don't even assign anything to those keys.

There are several iterations on the Ergodox design, and a comparison tool for many split keyboard layouts is here [1].

Using a similar approach (before that website existed), I decided on an Ergodash[2], which I bought as a kit, but is also available assembled. The first and second thumb keys are easy to reach (I have them as Backspace, Ctrl, Enter/Ctrl, Space) but the outermost ones are too far away. I have these as a sort-of "Fn"/"Windows" key. I still thing it's useful to have the extra keys, since it gives me more options without having to learn too many multi-key combinations.

[1] https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/

[2] https://github.com/omkbd/ErgoDash

Ergodox pioneered the genre of ortho split keyboard, but I don't think its the best in 2020. Minidox, Redox, Iris, Corn, Gergo all have better thumb clusters and are more compact.

Maltron pioneered the ortho split keyboard in 1980, and several companies made imitations since then -- Kinesis is best known, and is what the Ergodox was inspired by.

https://www.maltron.com/legacy-maltron-keyboards--archive.ht...

An exhaustive list on what makes a good keyboard:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/bmweh5...

The conclusion is that the best ones are: "Maltron, Kinesis Advantage, Dactyl, Manuform, Keyboardio Model 01, to a lesser degree ErgoDox-based designs like ReDox, ErgoDash or Iris"

Wanted to get the Ergodox, but now I'm waiting for the Keyboardio Model 100 to come out. Too bad, I really liked the look of the Ergodox.

How’s the Planck keyboard ergonomic? Wouldn’t it make me wrist twist too?

it isn't, though proponents will argue that the small size means you move your hands/fingers less

60% ortho boards reduce finger travel and reduce the horizontal travel, which is good (try moving your fingers up and down, then moving them left and right - it takes a lot more effort to move them left and right), but if you're going to invest in learning a new keyboard layout you should at least make sure it splits as well so that you don't need to bend your elbows and wrists.

I would not recommend just getting an ortholinear board for ergonomics. They definitely look cool though.

Amen. Also consider angling it as appropriate. In my experience the difference is pretty noticeable. Ergogox-ez has tent kits which are great. I picked up a couple of 3D printer angled risers that I use with my classic ergodox.

A non-split ortholinear board might even be worse as it causes you to bend your wrists even more than standard keyboards.

I picked up a Planck kit out of curiosity. I’ve always liked small keyboards.

However, I have a hard time understanding how it could be considered ergonomically friendly compared to something like the ergodox. The board is so small that it keeps my wrists at at odd angle when typing. It’s small and convenient when I need a quick spare but I can’t type on it for long.

A lot of people criticize the Planck for this, but I think the right way to type on a Planck is to treat it like its own beast. Rather than twisting your wrists to face the keyboard straight on, let them angle inward naturally. The grid layout means you don't have to contort your hands to reach the different rows, and if you let your hands "float" above the keyboard rather than putting pressure on your wrists it feels great. Another big mistake is using the default layout, part of the draw of a small layout is that you can customize the layers to your needs. It takes a couple weeks of getting used to but I loved mine so much I built a second one. I hate typing on a staggered layout now, it feels bizarre.

That being said, I have no doubt a split layout is superior ergonomically, but it takes up way more space and is more complicated. I would love to try out a Dactyl-Manuform though.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com