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Comment by jonfw | Hacker News Reader

> Different people have different wants and needs. Would you consider toys for children "spent well"? What about a netflix subscription? What if that netflix subscription gives the kids something to do while Mom goes to school? What about a babysitter, so parents can go out and feel human for once? What about a framed picture of a relative that just passed away

All of those are good examples of money well spent, or at least fairly well spent.

Bad examples would be things like drugs, alcohol, prostitutes, gambling, car/truck modifications, dirt bikes, ATVs, pornography, guns, etc.

That's what people are concerned about, not photographs of your dead grandma.

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Well actually...

guns tend to have an amazing return on investment. Every time a gun law passes, my buddy's gun collection goes up in value.

But to be more serious. I hadn't really thought about it before, but the majority things in your list, while often considered trashy in american culture, all tend to have the potential to have big negative externalities. This could end up being a real problem for things like UBI. As an economist, I have some pretty severe reservations about UBI mostly at a meta level regarding unavoidable inflationary pressures that may all but negate the value of an UBI. But it could end up being even worse than I imagine if an UBI ends up flooding neighborhoods with an excess of high negative externality goods and services.

Still, I've heard good things about the effects of direct cash transfers in very poor regions. They seem to be no more destructive than, say, giving cattle, while having lower overhead so more of the wealth is transferred. I understand much of the money ends up going towards things that more money conscious people might considered wasteful, but many indicators suggest there's still a general life improvement for those who receive the cash, even if the effects may be short lived. So I'm a little open minded about the concept in general.

How many dirt bikes do you think someone is buying? Is your concern that after being on UBI for a year someone will have 12 dirt bikes and a starving child?

If 99 people don’t buy drugs, and 1 person does, is the system a failure?

I'm just giving legitimate examples of wasteful things that people spend money on, because the person I was responding to seemed to have trouble coming up with good ones.

Just like the examples you're giving me- 12 dirt bikes? That's obviously a ridiculous proposition. So is only 1 out of 99 using that money to buy drugs- a much larger percentage of our population than that partakes. Using stupid examples like that doesn't persuade anybody that Americans are mostly financially responsible.

I'm trying to find the pattern in your bad examples. It's not morality, they're all luxuries? Would a gaming computer be bad?

UBI should incentivise other income and would still be available even to the wealthy. Some of the extra will go to industriousness, some will go to frivolousness, but would we expect anything different from general economic prosperity? I guess we need to find a control group that gets more money on their own?

"Prostitution: a luxury you can now afford!"

You have to understand that you need to sell UBI to America. It will never be implemented unless you can convince the tax paying populous that it will be "good", for some definition of "good". With taglines like that, you are making ubi less and less desirable for most people.

Many if those things have negative externalities. More guns, more violence. More prostitution, more human trafficking and other abuse (same for pornography). more illicit drugs, more trips to the emergency room and more deaths, etc.

It seems to me that all your examples involve people with less chances in life. However, the primary drive for criminality and prostitution is poverty. Less poverty means the supply of dealers, prostitutes shrinks, with rising demand prices will shoot up.

More guns, more violence by a smaller group, thus easier to the police. More prostitution by a smaller group, thus driving prices up which allows an easier escape. More human trafficking, why? This is hardly a side-job. Do you mean an increased immigration?

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