Comment by adge | Hacker News Reader

Comment by adge | Hacker News Reader

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Many organizers of protests in Furguson, peaceful or otherwise, have since been found murdered in ways that suggest they were literally hunted down and killed for their involvement. Multiple have been found shot through the head in burned out cars to destroy all evidence. If they broke the law it still does not merit being executed in the street. (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/puzzling-number-men-tie...)

In a situation where police feel justified to kill extra-judicially over a possibly fake 20 dollar bill, what hope do we have that protesters won't be targeted in unfair ways? Or worse, that organizers won't be hunted down like animals and murdered like in Furguson? It would be unethical to not do everything in your power to protect those in this position.

secondly how do you plan to identify violent vs non-violent protesters from a static image? How would you find their identity afterwards? There is overwhelming evidence to suggest these methods are at best ineffective and at worst racist, and in either case will lead to innocent people being charged.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2109887-police-mass-fac...

For those who do not click through to the article: “Police say that there is no evidence the deaths have anything to do with the protests”.

From my time in Portland, working at the courthouse as a court clerk during the Occupy movement, when hundreds of transient “protesters” camped out in the park, it is not surprising that some of those folks would OD or end up dead for reasons entirely not related to protesting but instead related to their unfortunate life circumstances. I do not know if the same is true of Ferguson, but the article does not seem to provide any evidence of calculated retaliation against protesters.

What an amazing coincidence.

Given a large population of any individuals with only loose connections, is it not statistically likely that some will die? Especially given that those prone to protesting in the streets might have encountered trauma, or might have been from high risk populations in the first place.

Why would the police say otherwise? Nice critical thinking.

The article just has these people loosely connected or "active" in the protests. One of them attended the protests, one launched a tear gas canister back at the police, one's mother attended the protests, etc. These aren't the main organizers or leaders dying mysteriously, but rather random attendees dying.

Is this more or less than the number of attendees we would expect to die based on Ferguson homicide rates and approximations of the number of attendees? I couldn't find that in the article.

Also, what's the theory that this isn't a coincidence? The police are murdering random protestors for some reason?

All of those mentioned in the article were not just attendees but community organizers. Do some drake equation style math on the back of an envelope:

What percentage of young people will die in a given year?

What percentage of those will happen to be community organizers?

What percentage of those will die by being shot in the head in a car that was then set on fire to annihilate forensic evidence?

Doesn't take too many steps out to get into the realm of zero percent probability that this is random chance

Are they organizers? That's not clear to me from the NBC article.

"""

— MarShawn McCarrel of Columbus, Ohio, shot himself in February 2016 outside the front door of the Ohio Statehouse, police said. He had been active in Ferguson.

— Edward Crawford Jr., 27, fatally shot himself in May 2017 after telling acquaintances he had been distraught over personal issues, police said. A photo of Crawford firing a tear gas canister back at police during a Ferguson protest was part of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch’s Pulitzer Prize-winning coverage.

— In October, 24-year-old Danye Jones was found hanging from a tree in the yard of his north St. Louis County home. His mother, Melissa McKinnies, was active in Ferguson and posted on Facebook after her son’s death, “They lynched my baby.” But the death was ruled a suicide.

— Bassem Masri, a 31-year-old Palestinian American who frequently livestreamed video of Ferguson demonstrations, was found unresponsive on a bus in November and couldn’t be revived. Toxicology results released in February showed he died of an overdose of fentanyl.

"""

One was "active", one sent tear gas back at police, one livestreamed parts of the protest, and one's mother was in the protest.

The first two people, who were shot in their cars, I didn't see the extent of their involvement.

How many were involved at this level or higher? Tens of thousands? How many should we expect to die of murder, suicide, and drug overdose, and how many have?

What is the theory explaining this? Do you think there is a group murdering Ferguson protestors after the fact?

No one has done the math, though.

Does anybody have any evidence they are connected? I’m not saying thy are or aren’t, but it’s at least worth noting what the police say.

It's not really. Police lie constantly, especially when it would implicate them. Their statements carry zero information except where they provide positive publicly verifiable evidence. Unsettling and sad, but its the truth.

So I’ll take that as a “No, there’s no evidence whatsoever that these are connected. It’s entirely baseless speculation and conspiracy theory.”

Given the circumstances, I would say you're never going to know the truth about these deaths with the possible exception of documents declassified or admissions of guilt decades after the fact. The question is if you are a political activist, is do you take these deaths seriously even if you can't prove they are foul play? Given the record of the government, I just can't rule it out.

> How would you find their identity afterwards?

Only responding to this part. I've seen enough people get dox'd on the internet from static photos that I continue to be impressed each time by the skill of volunteer/angry people on <internet forum>

Respect to NBC for reporting the African American male victims of homicide (50/65) but not the culprits (14/15).

Sometimes the "other side of the story" (as White Supremacists would say) does NOT need to be heard. Not now.

I don't know what your cryptic numerology means, but victims and killers are different categories and can't be directly compared, and being victim of a homicide has a much smaller personal-choice component perpetrator.

Of 65 St Louis homicide victims for the year, 50 were AA males; of the 15 identified killers, 14 were AA males.

I'd caution against implying that this is a choice at all. It's not as if 15 times as many are 'choosing' to murder because of the colour of their skin.

That's why I'm glad this fact was omitted - it's not hard to imagine how it might be misinterpreted or exploited.

Isn’t the point of civil disobedience that you know what you’re doing could have consequences? All I’m hearing is “we should let people trash entire cities and not be held accountable.”

You're saying is that people should expect and accept to be shot in the head when they commit civil disobedience? Really?

This is shocking and should absolutely be more widely reported as it may change behaviour of present day activists. We need an anonymizing solution for protest organizing.

>it may change behaviour of present day activists

that's exactly what the murderers want to achieve

Behaviour change may be more / better masks, etc. I am shocked by the number of people clearly committing crimes without masks.

When I hear your first point, I consider the possibility that these are not retaliatory murders, but rather ways to keep something secret. If there was an agenda behind these riots organized at a higher level than these leaders, similar to what is being suggested by some during these current protests, and those higher level organizers wanted to keep the agenda or those who set it hidden, it could explain why lower level leaders are being picked off.

Edit: For those downvoting, is there a problem with considering this possibility? I think it's incredibly unlikely, but ignoring black swans can one day come back to bite you. Ideally, everyone should be aware of the theories out there, however ludicrous, on the off chance that they are correct and require critical and swift action.

Pure speculation can sound rational and thorough, but most often it leads towards the ideas that seem most dramatic and exciting, and that conform to your own preconceptions and prejudices.

I think that's right, but I don't think that speculation doesn't have its uses. The truth is probably somewhere between the speculative extremes, and asking questions about the extremes causes people to look into things, which hopefully eventually lead to the truth and a resolution, both of which are probably nowhere near the extremes.

Well, you asked why you were being downvoted. Stuff that you just make up can be corrosive the the public dialogue.

> When I hear your first point, I consider the possibility that these are not retaliatory murders, but rather ways to keep something secret.

That contains as much conspiracy as "somebody is hunting down the protestors".

There are simpler possible explanations, I believe, e.g. people who join (or organize) riots are usually not the stable boring kind that live long, predictable lives full of planning and quiet afternoons. Drugs, crime, violence and mental health issues are probably more prevalent in that group than in the general population.

There are definitely much simpler explanations, and they are true 99.9% of the time. I think it's worth considering the complex explanations for the exceedingly rare times they happen to be true, especially if the complex explanations claim the stakes are high.

This is pure speculation devoid of knowing anything about the particular people involved. Social justice organizers are often offbeat individuals, but they are usually sincere principled people that like most of us are not interested in dying. There's not a lot to personally gain from organizing, but there is a lot of baseless aspersions that get cast at you so thanks for contributing.

Here's the thing about "black swans". If you ignore "white swans" in your hunt for black swans, you're going to miss a lot more swans overall.

Ok, so don't ignore either. You can consider multiple theories at once.

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