Comment by kick | Hacker News Reader

Comment by kick | Hacker News Reader

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He's expressed interest in the past about fixing this; he's not sure how to handle it yet:

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

That said, two things:

You should send a message to hn@ycombinator.com if you have something to say to moderation. They're very responsive, and you'll get a better response rate than posting in random HN threads that might not even be seen. It also breaks the Guidelines:

Please don't post on HN to ask or tell us something. Send it to hn@ycombinator.com.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

You also shouldn't take this personally. The poster likely didn't see your post, very likely wasn't 'gaming' anything (they actually have some really interesting articles in their submission history that don't seem to have been posted before, and they're a journalist; it was likely they just read it and posted it), and it wouldn't be practical to 'ban reposts': HN already has a feature that upvotes a previous submission if you post within a given range from it.

I know it's not a great feeling to post something that you think is interesting and to see it get to the front page later via someone else (I can point to a bunch of my own posts where this happened), but it getting to the front page at all is something positive. It's not a race, so incentivizing quick-draw on articles from popular outlets (like zdnet, which has millions of readers) above all else probably wouldn't be useful, either.

I don’t care to do that. It’s a problem with basic functionality. There is site behavior which disallows reposts, but only sometimes. The sometimes part is the bug, from my point of view. I honestly don’t care enough to do anything but say it shouldn’t happen when it happens to me, as long as it happens to me. Bug reports should be public for non-security related bugs.

This is a bug. This thread is my report. I can be reached on this thread.

Edit: I have emailed and asked that replies are in-thread or linked to in this thread. I hope we can get some clarity into whether this is a "won't fix" situation or more of a subjective call on a per-case basis, or something else entirely.

I don't want to make waves, just trying to surf.

Take a look at the past explanations at https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... and if you still have a question I haven't answered there, let me know what it is. Examples:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22042481

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21457217

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20206120

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18156460

https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...

https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...

I do have one unanswered question: Why did this particular repost get posted instead of upvoting my post?

Because your post fell below the bar for 'significant attention' as explained in the comments I linked to.

Maybe if I had gotten some of the karma from the repost it would have cleared the bar. This argument is circular, and I know you have to make a judgment call, but this feels like the wrong way to go about a fair, transparent system. Perhaps that is not a goal of HN, but from my few interactions with you on this site, I think you probably care a whole lot more about HN than I do, and I care too! Thanks for all you do.

Edit:

Why not do it like a lottery with more than one winning ticket sold? Share the karma pool among the OP and the reposters. Just an idea.

Or, let the reposter keep the karma, but put a byline saying something like 'first posted by user123 on jan 2, 1969' with a link? I care far more about attribution than karma. I care about making good posts, but if someone else gets the credit, why would I bother? If no one will see it, the intrinsic value to me is something I already had. To share is to be seen. If a tree falls in the forest with no one around to hear it and all that.

Yes, we're planning to implement some form of karma sharing. That information was in kick's reply to you upthread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23342187 - see the first link there).

The reason for wanting to do that is incentivize finding good stories that haven't been posted yet: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

This is the first time I’ve heard the words “karma sharing” from a representative of HN. I didn’t mean to miss what ‘kick was getting at, but I’m glad for the discussion. I also apologize if I came off as aggressive. I am working to be a better person online and offline, and I appreciate the dialogue. I also feel that this thread is a good thing for clarity around these issues on the site. I wish my phrasing and attitude came off better, but we are what we do, and so I’ll try to do better.

Maybe it's not that important.

If it’s not important then why karma?

I couldn’t agree more, by the way. It isn’t important. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t matter.

The votes help rank the submissions and the comments - finding interesting things for HN users to read and talk about is the purpose of the site. Who found a thing first (especially something that was going to end up on the front page one way or the other) is not really that interesting to most people. If anything, an FP-reaching post's contribution to a user's overall karma should probably be capped at around some small factor of a median comment.

I guess I just see breaking news differently. I don’t think news reaching a site when it does is predictable or deterministic. It’s not a foregone conclusion. Many posts which are on-topic or timely or relevant will never make it to FP. That is by nature of the FP. It can only hold so many posts. I agree that it doesn’t matter in aggregate, but this site is niche for a reason. It’s because people care to post quality, timely, relevant content here that the FP can be something to strive to be on. It’s a worthy goal to share content that is deemed worthy to make it to FP. It had an impact. Reposts are just another way to spread the impact around so we all benefit.

I hope that makes sense. I don’t disagree about karma caps. Reddit handles aspects of this karma perverse incentives problem differently for text posts earning no karma, while link posts do. If I got that right. In any case it’s a thorny problem and I think that what exists at HN now works pretty well. I’m sure it can be better, and I can’t think of a better team to think about how and why.

It may be helpful for you to consider the highest karma-earners on the site [1], and how they got there.

None of them got there by being the first to get breaking stories onto the site. They got there by regularly posting interesting comments and articles, consistently over several years.

Though if you look at their submission histories, plenty of what they've posted has received few/no upvotes. Some users will even post the same article every few months for a year or more, before it ever gets voted onto the front page.

Consistent contribution over the long term is what's key.

There are plenty of HN contributors who aren't well known at all for posting comments, but who have huge karma counts just for consistently posting interesting articles, and much of it is years-old, or about non-current topics like history, philosophy, literature, architecture etc.

Someone like that won't be bothered if other people sometimes get the karma for a story that they had submitted earlier. They will just keep posting several interesting articles every week or even every day, knowing that overall their contribution is valuable and that karma allocation will balance out fairly over the long term.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/leaders

'breaking news' is pretty much antithetical to HN. It just happens to have 'news' in the name, sort of like the town of Newport News. For the purposes of HN, a deeper, more detailed story three days 'late' is better than a superficial 'breaking' story.

Some information only matters to you if you know right now. Timeliness and relevancy are important to the user. The existence of the New page on HN and users who visit it prove that the search for the right content at the right time is one worth it to those to visit New.

HN is just not that kind of site, really. The existence of the new page does not 'prove' anything more than the name. Newly submitted stuff has to go somewhere, it doesn't mean it urgently needs to reach users. The FAQ, the guidelines, zillions of dang posts talk about the sort of things that make good HN posts and 'newsiness' is not high among them.

I’m not saying it proves anything. I’m saying HN the site is different things to different people. It’s hard to say what people intend when they upvote something, but I think they mean that it helped them and think it belongs on HN. By virtue of upvoting, they signal its relevance to them and their vote of confidence in its relevance to the wider HN community. I don’t have any burden to prove here or any angle to promote. Users vote, and HN is the result. HN wouldn’t be HN without its values (thank you) or its users (thank you all).

Users vote, and HN is the result

I think you're cycling through a sort of greatest hits of various common misconceptions about the way HN works and you're better off just reading dang's moderator comments for a little bit - this stuff comes up all the time and he addresses it with better detail, accuracy and nuance than I can. You'll be in a better position to then make your critique rather than debating it with less familiarity and with some internet rando who's lecturing you about how you have it all wrong.

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