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Comment by brianwawok | Hacker News Reader

Makes sense. Model Y is picking up steam. I doubt they are selling 100% production of the other models (Y is eating a bit into sales of all 3). S and X are both in need of a refresh, they have worse battery tech than both the 3 and Y and missing some of the cool Y features (heat pump, octovalve).

Current wait is 8-12 weeks on a Y, and only a week or two on the rest.

In line for my first Tesla (a y). It has been a very different car buying experience!!

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There's a couple areas where Tesla needs help, and the two I've experience so far waiting for my Y is logistics & customer service.

They've had extremely lousy communication so far with the delivery.

I was originally supposed to have the car on Memorial Day, but they called the day before saying it wasn't in WA (where I live) yet. When I called back on Memorial Day and asked where it actually was, they told me it got on a truck that morning. Logistically, if they knew the car wasn't getting on a semi anytime soon, why could I schedule a delivery appointment?

Yesterday, they re-scheduled my delivery (which is supposed to now be tomorrow) from the service center to a direct home delivery without notifying me. Of course, I had to call them to confirm and ask whether they were going to try and fit a semi truck on the narrow city streets where I live or if they were going to drive the car itself to me, but the delivery specialist has no clue.

Hopefully things go as planned tomorrow and there isn't another delay, but the communication so far has been worse than my experience dealing with a regular car dealership.

That being said, I'm looking forward to the Y and there's a reason I'm buying a Tesla instead of something else. I can't complain too much since the timing of the delivery (as long as it isn't delayed too much more...) is fantastic since my existing lease ends in a week, but I'm looking forward to actually driving it and forgetting about this headache.

If Tesla figures out the logistics & customer support (and QC...), they'll be worlds ahead in the buying experience, but for now most other car dealers coddle you much more (with the exception of the negotiation process).

It seems highly dependent on which service center and who is assigned to you. I places two orders early this year and the first one the guy didn’t really respond to my emails at all but the second one was very responsive and proactive.

Regardless they really really need to work on this.

At one point they had CSRs that would manage you and it was similarly unresponsive.

Having dealt with automotive service centers for 30+ years, it's just something I've come to expect. Some people are proactive, some people are reactive, and some people just don't give a flip.

I actually have never received a pro-active contact from a human delivery specialist (so, do I even have anyone assigned to me?), via call, text, or email.

The only call I've actually gotten from them was from the actual service center telling me that the car wasn't there yet.

This morning has been a fun game of phone tag to figure out why the delivery was switched and who can confirm exactly how the car is going to be delivered :) Oddly, each person seems to have some bit of information that the other didn't have, even within the same role.

I'm not trying to excuse their poor communication, I think the problem is that they have given the Tesla Stores a lot of autonomy in managing deliveries. That means the mothership is reliant on the Stores for status updates.

That autonomy has benefits for some. In my case, our Model 3 was initially scheduled to be delivered to a Tesla Store an hour from our house. We called to see if we could have it delivered to the location 15 minutes away, they instead offered to deliver it to our home.

The weekend before delivery we received a call from the location 15 minutes away saying they had the car and we could pick it up immediately if we didn't want to wait for them to arrange delivery.

Good luck! Tesla's are marvels of technology, but the lockdown they have on maintenance and repair -- which includes extremely high costs -- is enough to shy me away until we get a 'right-to-repair' law.

I would just settle for a full pipeline of replacement parts!

You are absolutely right, but it's also not as bad as it was before. You can now buy "unrestricted" parts. Before, you couldn't even buy an air filter.

Thanks to legislation, not to Tesla's magnanimous nature. Several states (notably, MA) had to wave increasingly large sticks at Tesla to get any traction there.

You couldn't even buy a screw from their online ordering system. "Price: Not listed". "Order: Contact Tesla" (who would then say "not available to you".

Even their service manuals. Make an appointment, in MA. Pay a fee. Go to a specified location, weeks later. Go into a room with paper and pencil, no cameras, phones, or computers allowed. Be given a time limit.

You can get them online...

https://service.teslamotors.com/

It’s just expensive

That wasn't always the case. That was his point.

There is hardly any maintenance on them. I had a minor wind noise issue when I first got it that they took care of in a couple hours. Since then, it’s been washer fluid and tires.

The kinds of routine maintenance and repair items you typically don’t want to take your car to a dealer for aren’t much of a thing on a Tesla. Then there are the big ones where you probably do want the dealer working on it. Like if some significant mechanical problem occurs I want Tesla working on it. Not to mention, a lot of the more expensive repairs are going to be covered by warranty or insurance anyway. Sure, they’re expensive, but so is everyone else.

If you bought a new or new-ish Ford and there was a mechanical failure would you want to take it to a Ford shop or a random mechanic? Yes, there’s a significant number of people in the latter group, but they’re going to feel that way no matter what they drive. Most of them probably don’t buy new cars because of it. Many people who buy new cars either don’t care or actually prefer to go to the dealer.

> Not to mention, a lot of the more expensive repairs are going to be covered by warranty or insurance anyway. Sure, they’re expensive, but so is everyone else.

This ignores the timing aspect too. What other major manufacturers might have up to 6 weeks or more lead times for repair parts for current vehicles?

> Many people who buy new cars either don’t care or actually prefer to go to the dealer.

I own a new, high-end car. I'd rather find (an orthogonal issue) and go to a passionate mechanic than a dealership who has lock-in (and of the two issues my vehicle has had, I am fairly certain the dealer service center _caused_ one of them, and then couldn't answer a simple question that anyone with a multimeter could, with the other).

Yeah. Independent mechanics are a mixed bag. Dealerships aren't -- they're all bad.

> but they’re going to feel that way no matter what they drive.

The difference is that a "random mechanic" is an option with most manufacturers. And it's not with Tesla.

But my point is that most people don’t care. Certainly the ones who buy a Tesla don’t.

This is like arguing that the iPhone is a bad phone because it doesn’t have a removable battery. For some, that’s a real issue. It may have been somewhat controversial in the beginning. These days no one cares because it hasn’t turned out to be a major issue for most.

A bunch of manufacturers find ways to get owners back to the dealership. Sure, Tesla has more lock in than most, but try taking any other electric car to an independent mechanic. Or a high end import.

> But my point is that most people don’t care.

Plenty do, they just also want a premium electric car despite the downsides, not because it has none. You just keep oscillating between your point being that "you" don't care, or "most people" don't care.

I think the biggest single disadvantage Tesla has compared to other manufacturers is the service network, either dedicated or partnerships. Even in places where there's no "dealership mafia" like the EU.

Outside of internet discussions where someone needed to convince themselves that everyone shares their point of view I never met a person who said "I don't care how much my personal car costs to repair, how long it takes, or how many hoops I have to jump through to do it". Definitely not after they faced the challenges. Some may afford to absorb the extra costs but this doesn't mean they don't care.

Sure, the service network is a weakness, but it's partially mitigated by the fact that there's far less service for which you need to return to Tesla than there is with other cars. In practice, it's just not a major concern because there's no dealer maintenance schedule. You're not taking it in every few months like with a gas car. You fill the wiper fluid, you get the tires rotated and you change the tires once in a while. You can take it almost anywhere for tires. Brakes aren't an issue because you hardly use them in a Tesla. The rest is mostly warranty type stuff you'd go back to the dealer for anyway and collision repair which sucks no matter what you drive. It's just not really as much of an issue as critics want to make it out to be. I've never had a lower maintenance car in my life. People are on here talking about suspension replacements and other high mileage repairs and most people, particularly the ones who buy a Tesla, won't own the car long enough to be concerned about that.

> there's far less service for which you need

I'm thinking more like fixing even a minor fender bender. Anecdote but I personally know of someone from an Eastern European country who had to ferry the damaged Tesla Model 3 on a platform to a neighboring country to repair it because that was the closest authorized garage. It took months and the insurance premium exploded. You get a simple cracked headlight? There are no aftermarket parts, and even if you have an original one no garage can "legally" install it. Knowing someone in a Tesla authorized service partner I can confirm the practices are... not great. According to the agreement they signed to become an authorized partner and under the threat of withdrawing said authorization, they have quite a few limitations that make for longer wait times and more expensive repairs. They are not allowed to order extra parts for stock (they have to "tie" them to a car in service) and they are not allowed to use aftermarket replacement parts, only consumables. These are real issues and even if recently I was looking for electrics I just wasn't willing to take the chance. I have to consider the plausible worst case when making a purchase decision.

The yearly maintenance for my car just meant a maximum 45 minute visit to the nearest shop to my office that I did in the morning on my way to work.

> high mileage repairs and most people, particularly the ones who buy a Tesla, won't own the car long enough to be concerned about that

That's not good advertisement for a car. You're saying it's great as long as you can get rid of it fast enough? I'd really like to have the option to stick with the car without such caveats. I mean every car's maintenance increases with age and perhaps Teslas today involve the same overall effort and expense except distributed differently over the lifecycle (lower than average for the first few years, through your nose when it gets old). This may be ok for expensive cars like an Model X or an MB S-class, but not for something like a Model 3. And it suggests the very same Tesla owners talk out of both sides of their mouths. On one hand they are just trying to be green, on the other they're changing cars every few years? Don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for a justification, just pointing out the dissonance.

There are “random mechanics” popping up that do repairs on all types of evs. There’s quite a few who only deal with Tesla’s.

>The kinds of routine maintenance and repair items you typically don’t want to take your car to a dealer for aren’t much of a thing on a Tesla.

They're still cars. Give it 10yr and you'll still need all the same suspension and steering related service that every other car needs. Nobody wants to pay a dealer to do something trivial like CV boots or wheel bearings.

True, but I won’t own the car in 10 years so I don’t care. I’m not discounting your point or anyone else’s on merit. What I’m getting at is that it’s a minority position and most people don’t care. How many 10 year old cars do you see out on the road? Yeah, they’re out there, but most of them are a lot newer than that. Most buyers just don’t keep a car long enough for any of this to matter and the ones that do care have 100 other options.

> Yeah, they’re out there, but most of them are a lot newer than that.

What do you think happens to a car when you're done with it? In the USA, the average passenger vehicle age in 2019 was 11.8 years: https://www.bts.gov/content/average-age-automobiles-and-truc...

It ends up on a used lot, at an auction, shipped overseas or in a junk yard depending on how long I drove it and what kind of shape it’s in. But I don’t care. The next owner isn’t my problem and I’m not going to give it a second thought. The fact is I’m not going to keep a Tesla long enough that the warranty expires and I can trade it or sell it for reasonable value in order to get a new one so the ability to get it repaired by a third party is irrelevant to me. What I’m arguing is that this is true for most Tesla buyers and Tesla doesn’t have to cater to buyers who demand right to repair because there are 100 other options in that space.

Tesla cares at least somewhat about what happens out of warranty because producing junk that costs an arm and a leg to keep running beyond the warranty is not how you build the kind of reputation that lets you move downmarket which has been Tesla's stated goal since the beginning.

That's their problem, not mine. My concern as an owner is whether I could reasonably sell or trade the car for a new one after I drive it 3-6 years and that's been satisfied. The point where it's difficult to unload a used Tesla is when I question whether it's worthwhile to buy a new one. As long as you can buy one, take it somewhere to get it repaired, expect reasonable resale value and then easily sell or trade it in, that checks the important boxes for most buyers. Tesla has achieved that. Is there room for improvement? Sure. Is it turning off a few potential buyers? Maybe, but not enough of them that it hasn't become a mainstream car.

> How many 10 year old cars do you see out on the road? Yeah, they’re out there, but most of them are a lot newer than that

This must be a regional thing. I would guess the majority of vehicleS on the road in Arkansas are more than 10 years old. My daily driver is a 2000 (built in 1999). Granted, it’s a Jeep Wrangler, so that’s probably not representative of the overall market... but my wife’s vehicle is a 2015 Kia Sorento and still looks and feels “new”.

Out of curiosity, how much do you drive your Tesla? I don’t commute every day but my Jeep has ~180k on it. The Kia has ~120k. We’re starting to consider upgrading the Kia, but unless we find a crazy deal it would surprise me if we kept it another five years and 100k+ miles.

I drive the Tesla 50-120 miles a day depending on what I’m doing that day. I mostly got it for the autopilot and then loved everything else after the fact. Whatever flaws autopilot has, it’s life changing if you have to spend a lot of time on the highway.

P.S. An old Wrangler definitely isn’t representative. Hell, the old ones are even better. My wife has a newer one and we will probably keep it forever. Great vehicles.

The average American car is 11.8 years old.

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/06/27/record-average-age-cars-...

Other than oil changes, what maintenance does the Tesla not have?

Even ICE cars these days have very little maintenance. Oil changes every 7000-10000 miles is about the only thing, and that cost is not very high.

> the lockdown they have on maintenance and repair

This is not endemic to Telsa, or even to the auto industry. It's in $800K tractors as well.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-03-05/farmers-f...

Tesla's much worse about it than other car manufacturers. Not sure how industrial equipment is relevant here (not sold to consumers).

many farms are small businesses, and thus are closer to a B2C relationship than B2B.

But aside from equivalency, I posit that the general expectation of buying something is that you should be able to do what you lawfully want with it.

> which includes extremely high costs

Yes that's a Tesla exclusive...

I took my Leaf in for a recall repair and they quoted about $800 to replace all fluids and filters. They wanted $120 to swap out the $9 cabin filter from under the dash that took me all of 20 minutes to do. They encouraged me to spend another $600 to replace a door handle because of an engineering defect that was purely cosmetic and easily fixed with a dab of hot glue.

If you expect reliability and quality, you also find the ownership experience to be different. I have owned three.

Please elaborate

One X was a lemon and spent months in the shop. The second X was better but still needs a warranty repair every few months. The 3 is better still but has had six or seven service visits.

Anecdotally, my father has had an early (2018) 3 for the last 2 years and hasn't had any issues. The only service done so far has been recall work for the frunk latch (I guess he doesn't use it much and didn't notice the defect that the recall was supposed to fix).

The reliability stats disagree with OP. So I wouldn’t read too much into his single data point.

Especially wrt the 3. The X def had some issues around the falcon wings etc.

Even Elon has said they may have gone too far with the X, and that it was their faberge egg. I would love to have an X purely for the "cool" features like the automatic & falcon doors, but there's just so many failure points (and, of course, the cost).

Yah for sure.

Which is sad because I really want a car the size of the X. But at like 55-65k. Basically a Y+. I don’t need falcon wings nor rocket speed.

The Y isn't even coming out in Europe for another year. That's probably good because it's the only viable Tesla for me and I'll probably have the budget for it next year.

The Model S came out in 2012. Surely it's time for a full redesign, or at least a refresh with their existing battery tech etc..

> Current wait is 8-12 weeks on a Y, and only a week or two on the rest.

Here in Europe it's August for all of S/3/X.

You are waiting for Berlin to go up right? Or is that next year?

S/3/X come from the US (partly assembled/finished in the Netherlands AFAIK).

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