Comment by adventured | Hacker News Reader

Comment by adventured | Hacker News Reader

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> Sure Lebron has not won as many championships as Jordan (Lebron's 3 to Jordan's 6)

Your sure statement is quite the qualification. Three versus six rings is an enormous difference in the NBA. That's a Larry Bird of a difference. Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Reggie Miller, Patrick Ewing, Chris Mullin and Dominique Wilkins won zero rings.

> but he is an atypical pro athlete in that he wants to see his teammates score vs. himself score

Jordan's average was 5.3 assists per game (as a shooting guard, emphasis). That's good enough for #29 in the NBA this season and #28 last season. He was winning scoring titles while simultaneously out-competing some starting point guards when it came to assists.

Jordan ranks #45 all-time in assists, in 14 equivalent full seasons, ahead of a large list of point guards.

He averaged 8 assists and 32.5 points in the same season in 1989, during the height of his scoring capabilities. 8 assists per game is good enough for #5 this season (for those that don't know basketball well, that's typically elite point guard territory).

Lebron is #4 all-time in points per game. Your argument is pretty amusing to make given the numbers. He wants to see his teammates score vs himself? He has led his team in scoring for 16 years in a row, including his rookie season.

Lebron's scoring average per game is 27.1, Jordan's was 30.1. Lebron has averaged 20 shots per game, Jordan averaged 23. Your premise is plainly false, the gulf between them on scoring behavior is simply not that great. Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant won championships with Jordan and became renowned players - with Pippen being named to the all-time 50 list - precisely because Jordan had no problem with them scoring as well.

The scoring label was only partially true in the early years of Jordan's career where he was on a very mediocre Bulls team and attempted to do too much of the scoring out of necessity.

Lebron averaged 31.4 points and took 23 shots per game, with 6.6 assists, his third season in the league as a reference. Lebron clearly wasn't lacking in aggressive scoring behavior in his early years either.

> Sure Lebron has not won as many championships as Jordan (Lebron's 3 to Jordan's 6)

He's won 3 and also been to 9 in a row, not a small feat.

A little confused by the rest of your arguments, over their careers MJ averaged 30.1 pts and 5.3 assists per game and Lebron so far has averaged 27.1 pts and 7.4 assists per game so doesn't that counter your argument since clearly Lebron has done much more passing?

> He has led his team in scoring for 16 years in a row, including his rookie season.

How is that relevant? Lebron is number 8 all time in assists as a SF.

The numbers don't lie, its pretty clear he could lower his assist output and increase his scoring pretty easily.

> He's won 3 and also been to 9 in a row, not a small feat.

Two of those 3 resulted from "the decision", which in practice meant he hand-picked a team whose starting lineup counted with 3 or 4 hall of famers arguably during their prime, with the notable exception of Ray Allen.

Yeah and how'd the Heat do the year after Lebron went back to Cleveland? Spoiler: after just making a trip to the finals the previous season they had a losing record and didn't even make the playoffs

So to recap: Miami with Lebron = 4 Straight NBA Finals, Miami first year without Lebron = losing record and miss playoffs completel. They're basically a .500 dumpster team ever since.

I don't think you realize how good those Bulls teams of the 90's, especially the 2nd 3-peats were. For the 2nd 3-peats, 96,97,98 championships, they had 3(Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman) top ten of all time defensive players [1]. So lets think, since the dawn of the NBA 3 of the players on this team are considered the best defenders ever to play the game. This is not all Jordan, this is a stellar defensive cast that is beyond anything the game has seen coupled with the best offensive player in a generation(Jordan). Lebron has never had such a quality(defensive) cast surrounding him.

lets not forget coaching. Phil Jackson has won 11 championships, more than any coach ever in the NBA. Who has Lebron had during his championships? Tyronn Lue and Erik Spoelstra, good coaches, but not one of the brightest minds to ever coach the game in Jackson.

Lastly, Lebron is still playing, he could pull off a 3-peat with this current Lakers team, we just don't know. I say all this as a die-hard Jordan fan who thinks people underestimate Lebron because he's "nice".

[1] - https://bleacherreport.com/articles/519667-defensive-legends...

Serioulsy I mean Jordan was winning scoring titles for years before he won a ring and when he took a year off to play baseball the Bulls were within an inch of the Finals and possibly winning it without him. Meanwhile Lebron has led teams to the finals and the year after he leaves they are basically lottery teams. He is far more crucial to his teams than Jordan was.

> when he took a year off to play baseball the Bulls were within an inch of the Finals

In 1994 the Bulls were eliminated by New York in the second round.

and the 95 playoffs, he was back for and they got eliminated in the second round. 4-2 by orlando. they took NY to game 7.

> and the 95 playoffs, he was back

Jordan returned in March/April after abandoning baseball in protest. The playoffs started in April 28th.

This comment is laughable. They swept Cleveland in the first round and took NY to 7 Games and the Knicks then took the Rockets to 7 Games in the Finals.

What's laughable is claiming that getting eliminated in the second round is getting an inch from the final. I mean, 8 teams get to an inch of winning the championship every single year!

The expected wins of that team was 52-30. Pippen had a weak 92-93 season (WS/48 was 0.13 versus 0.194 in 93-94). The bench was improved with Longley, Kerr and Kukoc. Swap Harper for BJ and Rodman for Grant and that team was closer to the 95-96 team.

Jordan was blessed with having the greatest NBA coach of all time to guide his team. After coaching Jordan to 6 titles, Phil Jackson went on to win another 5 with the Lakers.

Lebron's coaches have been pedestrian in comparison. That's one reason the comparison is so difficult between the two.

> Lebron's coaches have been pedestrian in comparison.

LeBron has been hand-picking his whole team for a decade now. If he was unable to find a decent coach, which is not subject to the same restrictions as stacking the team with all-star players, then that shortcoming is also entirely on LeBron.

And Phil Jackson's championships were on team's featuring arguably three of the greatest players of all times: Jordan, O'Neal, and Briant. I wouldn't argue that O'Neal and Briant's rings were a result of Phil Jackson.

Popovich never coached Jordan.

These are the kind of stats people threw around a decade ago. Since then, most analysts have recognized that advanced stats can help avoid some clear situations where these basic statistics get conflated with other factors.

Total assists per game don't account for usage rate or minutes played. If Jordan played all 48 every game and had the ball in his hands 80% of the time, of course he'd end up with a ton of assists, simply because every shot (besides the ones he makes) is most likely to have come after a pass directly from him.

Championships are a very overrated way to rate any player. Tremendous luck goes into winning any championship. Less impactful players can win rings by taking a lesser salary and "ring hunting" with contenders (as you already point out). Championships can be a factor in determining a player's greatness, but let's not make them the sole determinant.

There are factors that work in favor of your argument as well. The pace of the game has increased, so that accounts for a degree of statistical inflation alone (which again advanced stats help to account for). Not sure how these impact things, but hree pointers have become a much bigger part of the game, defensive hand checking is outlawed, and zone defense has been legalized.

This is hacker news, home of the nerds. If we're going to talk stats in sports, let's do it right!

And yet, you score a few extra points just by not being an asshole.

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