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Comment by subsubzero | Hacker News Reader

Contrast Jordan's greatness and being an asshole with Lebron James's greatness and being a nice guy. Sure Lebron has not won as many championships as Jordan (Lebron's 3 to Jordan's 6) but he is an atypical pro athlete in that he wants to see his teammates score vs. himself score [1] . Also Lebron has never gotten in a fight with his own teammates like Jordan did twice, or maybe more? Jordan also had the benefit of Scottie Pippen who is a all-pro/50 greatest player [2] and far exceeded the skill of any of Lebron James teammates(Dwayne Wade prb being the closest to Pippen.) Sure Lebron is demanding and has extremely high standards, but there are different ways to influence greatness from your teammates other than being an extreme asshole.

[1] - https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/lebron-james-says-he-and-... [2] - https://www.nba.com/history/nba-at-50/top-50-players

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> Lebron has never gotten in a fight with his own teammates like Jordan did twice, or maybe more?

Lebron has definitely abused his teammates during games on live TV, those clips are a YouTube search away. He’s also been responsible for having multiple coaches fired in his career, which isn’t exactly a servant-leader move.

> Jordan also had the benefit of Scottie Pippen who is a all-pro/50 greatest player

Lebron has played on teams that will probably go down as on-par with some of those bulls teams, it’s not like Pippen was on another planet compared to Wade or Anthony Davis. They’re fairly comparable players. The Cavs also wound up beating that Warriors team that matched the Bulls single season record, which was also considered one of the most talented teams ever.

Also, Jordan never belittled opposing fans in a press conference the way Lebron did in 2011 that he wound up having to clarify[0]. This was truly one of the most distasteful things I’ve ever seen a pro athlete say in a press conference, but that’s clearly my opinion.

I don’t necessarily believe that one is more or less moral than the other, but I’ve never been convinced of the Lebron “nice guy” story. He’s always come across as more narcissistic than Jordan in my opinion, Jordan would never have done “The Decision” the way Lebron did.

0: https://www.espn.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/news/story?id=66...

> Jordan also had the benefit of Scottie Pippen who is a all-pro/50 greatest player [2] and far exceeded the skill of any of Lebron James teammates(Dwayne Wade prb being the closest to Pippen.)

Dwane Wade is arguably more accomplished than Pippen, and LeBron also enjoyed the help of the likes of Chris Bosh and Ray Allen. This means that 2 of the 3 championships won by LeBron counted with 3 or 4 all stars and all of famers, either current or future.

While Wade and Bosh were seasoned leaders who respectively carried their teams single-handedly, Pippen never really reached that level. In fact, arguably he disappointed in that domain during Jordan's retirement.

And let's not forget, that unlike Jordan, LeBron shopped around rather intensely to hand-pick which players would pick up the slack.

If he was on a fantasy league that would be a kin of getting the cheat codes to the game and burying the competition.

LeBron James dragged 4 guys and a bench that only the most hardcore NBA fans can name 2 of to the NBA finals in his fourth year in the league.

3/5 starters were all stars, not much different than Jordan Pippen Rodman. Kobe + Gasol or Shaq was honestly much more impressive than either.

lebro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyYmJnM9eQs

kobe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzwCh3qbpp4&pbjreload=10

Maybe I just miss kobe tho...

I'm not talking about his time in Miami. I'm talking about when he dragged Cleveland past Detroit in the Eastern to play the 3-time finals winning Spurs. LeBron and Jordan are both beasts and trying to compare them is futile, but there is a lot of disrespect for LeBron.

Just because LeBron is featured below Jordan in player rankings that doesn't mean LeBron is being disrespected. I mean, is Tim Duncan being disrespected by those who insist in calling LeBron one of the best players ever eventhough Tim Duncan has 5 under his belt and LeBron had to buy his way into 3?

> LeBron James dragged 4 guys and a bench

That counts as one championship, and a performance that's in line with the likes of Kawhi Leonard or Dirk Nowitzki.

Winning a single championship is barely evidence of being superior to Michael Jordan.

> "Jordan also had the benefit of Scottie Pippen who is a all-pro/50 greatest player and far exceeded the skill of any of Lebron James teammates(Dwayne Wade prb being the closest to Pippen.)"

lebron has anthony davis, who hasn't quite proven he's at that level, but he's well on his way. just a little more tutelage under lebron and he may go down as being a better 2 than pippen. i'm excited to find out, so let's get this season back on track already!

The major difference being that Labron is 35, which is how old MJ was in the 98 season. That was the end of the bulls, but really just the start of Lakers Labron. Jordan did diddly after that season (in part because he was stupid and injured himself with a cigar cutter).

lebron has at least 3 more good years left. unlike jordan, lebron doesn't have to deal with a jerry krause dismantling the team out from under him. if AD rises at the same pace lebron declines, it's many more exciting years for the lakers.

with that said, zion and the lakers-b-team pelicans are the most exciting thing in basketball right now. brandon ingram made no sense as a #2 to lebron, but he's blossoming in new orleans next to zion, jrue holiday, and an also-revitalized lonzo ball.

> Sure Lebron has not won as many championships as Jordan (Lebron's 3 to Jordan's 6)

Your sure statement is quite the qualification. Three versus six rings is an enormous difference in the NBA. That's a Larry Bird of a difference. Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Reggie Miller, Patrick Ewing, Chris Mullin and Dominique Wilkins won zero rings.

> but he is an atypical pro athlete in that he wants to see his teammates score vs. himself score

Jordan's average was 5.3 assists per game (as a shooting guard, emphasis). That's good enough for #29 in the NBA this season and #28 last season. He was winning scoring titles while simultaneously out-competing some starting point guards when it came to assists.

Jordan ranks #45 all-time in assists, in 14 equivalent full seasons, ahead of a large list of point guards.

He averaged 8 assists and 32.5 points in the same season in 1989, during the height of his scoring capabilities. 8 assists per game is good enough for #5 this season (for those that don't know basketball well, that's typically elite point guard territory).

Lebron is #4 all-time in points per game. Your argument is pretty amusing to make given the numbers. He wants to see his teammates score vs himself? He has led his team in scoring for 16 years in a row, including his rookie season.

Lebron's scoring average per game is 27.1, Jordan's was 30.1. Lebron has averaged 20 shots per game, Jordan averaged 23. Your premise is plainly false, the gulf between them on scoring behavior is simply not that great. Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant won championships with Jordan and became renowned players - with Pippen being named to the all-time 50 list - precisely because Jordan had no problem with them scoring as well.

The scoring label was only partially true in the early years of Jordan's career where he was on a very mediocre Bulls team and attempted to do too much of the scoring out of necessity.

Lebron averaged 31.4 points and took 23 shots per game, with 6.6 assists, his third season in the league as a reference. Lebron clearly wasn't lacking in aggressive scoring behavior in his early years either.

And yet, you score a few extra points just by not being an asshole.

Jordan was blessed with having the greatest NBA coach of all time to guide his team. After coaching Jordan to 6 titles, Phil Jackson went on to win another 5 with the Lakers.

Lebron's coaches have been pedestrian in comparison. That's one reason the comparison is so difficult between the two.

> Lebron's coaches have been pedestrian in comparison.

LeBron has been hand-picking his whole team for a decade now. If he was unable to find a decent coach, which is not subject to the same restrictions as stacking the team with all-star players, then that shortcoming is also entirely on LeBron.

And Phil Jackson's championships were on team's featuring arguably three of the greatest players of all times: Jordan, O'Neal, and Briant. I wouldn't argue that O'Neal and Briant's rings were a result of Phil Jackson.

Popovich never coached Jordan.

I don't think you realize how good those Bulls teams of the 90's, especially the 2nd 3-peats were. For the 2nd 3-peats, 96,97,98 championships, they had 3(Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman) top ten of all time defensive players [1]. So lets think, since the dawn of the NBA 3 of the players on this team are considered the best defenders ever to play the game. This is not all Jordan, this is a stellar defensive cast that is beyond anything the game has seen coupled with the best offensive player in a generation(Jordan). Lebron has never had such a quality(defensive) cast surrounding him.

lets not forget coaching. Phil Jackson has won 11 championships, more than any coach ever in the NBA. Who has Lebron had during his championships? Tyronn Lue and Erik Spoelstra, good coaches, but not one of the brightest minds to ever coach the game in Jackson.

Lastly, Lebron is still playing, he could pull off a 3-peat with this current Lakers team, we just don't know. I say all this as a die-hard Jordan fan who thinks people underestimate Lebron because he's "nice".

[1] - https://bleacherreport.com/articles/519667-defensive-legends...

Serioulsy I mean Jordan was winning scoring titles for years before he won a ring and when he took a year off to play baseball the Bulls were within an inch of the Finals and possibly winning it without him. Meanwhile Lebron has led teams to the finals and the year after he leaves they are basically lottery teams. He is far more crucial to his teams than Jordan was.

> when he took a year off to play baseball the Bulls were within an inch of the Finals

In 1994 the Bulls were eliminated by New York in the second round.

and the 95 playoffs, he was back for and they got eliminated in the second round. 4-2 by orlando. they took NY to game 7.

> and the 95 playoffs, he was back

Jordan returned in March/April after abandoning baseball in protest. The playoffs started in April 28th.

This comment is laughable. They swept Cleveland in the first round and took NY to 7 Games and the Knicks then took the Rockets to 7 Games in the Finals.

What's laughable is claiming that getting eliminated in the second round is getting an inch from the final. I mean, 8 teams get to an inch of winning the championship every single year!

The expected wins of that team was 52-30. Pippen had a weak 92-93 season (WS/48 was 0.13 versus 0.194 in 93-94). The bench was improved with Longley, Kerr and Kukoc. Swap Harper for BJ and Rodman for Grant and that team was closer to the 95-96 team.

> Sure Lebron has not won as many championships as Jordan (Lebron's 3 to Jordan's 6)

He's won 3 and also been to 9 in a row, not a small feat.

A little confused by the rest of your arguments, over their careers MJ averaged 30.1 pts and 5.3 assists per game and Lebron so far has averaged 27.1 pts and 7.4 assists per game so doesn't that counter your argument since clearly Lebron has done much more passing?

> He has led his team in scoring for 16 years in a row, including his rookie season.

How is that relevant? Lebron is number 8 all time in assists as a SF.

The numbers don't lie, its pretty clear he could lower his assist output and increase his scoring pretty easily.

> He's won 3 and also been to 9 in a row, not a small feat.

Two of those 3 resulted from "the decision", which in practice meant he hand-picked a team whose starting lineup counted with 3 or 4 hall of famers arguably during their prime, with the notable exception of Ray Allen.

Yeah and how'd the Heat do the year after Lebron went back to Cleveland? Spoiler: after just making a trip to the finals the previous season they had a losing record and didn't even make the playoffs

So to recap: Miami with Lebron = 4 Straight NBA Finals, Miami first year without Lebron = losing record and miss playoffs completel. They're basically a .500 dumpster team ever since.

These are the kind of stats people threw around a decade ago. Since then, most analysts have recognized that advanced stats can help avoid some clear situations where these basic statistics get conflated with other factors.

Total assists per game don't account for usage rate or minutes played. If Jordan played all 48 every game and had the ball in his hands 80% of the time, of course he'd end up with a ton of assists, simply because every shot (besides the ones he makes) is most likely to have come after a pass directly from him.

Championships are a very overrated way to rate any player. Tremendous luck goes into winning any championship. Less impactful players can win rings by taking a lesser salary and "ring hunting" with contenders (as you already point out). Championships can be a factor in determining a player's greatness, but let's not make them the sole determinant.

There are factors that work in favor of your argument as well. The pace of the game has increased, so that accounts for a degree of statistical inflation alone (which again advanced stats help to account for). Not sure how these impact things, but hree pointers have become a much bigger part of the game, defensive hand checking is outlawed, and zone defense has been legalized.

This is hacker news, home of the nerds. If we're going to talk stats in sports, let's do it right!

it seems like you're falling for the exact fallacy described in the article... maybe intentionally to be provocative?

siegler notes that we're all complex beings who can be assholes some of the time. he notes jordan also has a great sense of branding and image, and plays it up for the camera.

but there's no doubt that given the level of talent and relative parity at the top of any sport, you need to develop an edge, and jordan could do that, by poking, prodding, and pushing his teammates to rise rather than remain complacent.

“Winning has a price. And leadership has a price.”

the price jordan paid wasn't at the expense of the respect and friendship of his teammates, otherwise they wouldn't have won so much together. in other words, he wasn't just an asshole.

"I'm gonna take my talents to south beach". Lebron has grown up a lot, but that special was probably one of the most narcissistic things any pro athlete has ever done. Also, Wade won a championship before Lebron went to Miami.

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