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Comment by topkai22 | Hacker News Reader

I appreciate Musk being upset at Alameda county being more conservative in reopening then the state of California, the way he approached it really upset me. The "we'll open in defiance to authorities" approach was wrong and supports a dangerous narrative in the United States (and presumably elsewhere) regarding the response to the pandemic.

More generally, I find the "we'll just ignore laws we find inconvenient and disagree with" approach a lot of SV (Uber springs to mind) or SV derived companies have taken discomforting. Rule of law is important and defiance should be reserved for true injustice, not self-enrichment.

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Government overreach is dangerous too. His pushing back on this is appropriate.

Also worth noting that he got support from government officials, including the state governor.

> Government overreach is dangerous too.

SpaceX is currently asking for government handouts:

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-05-12/spacex-mus...

There's no honest fight for truth, justice, and the American way in anything Elon is doing. It's just a company trying to get what it can and give as little as possible back.

Socialize the costs, privatize the profits.

How is SpaceX asking for economic support, minimal economic support (only $600k!?), not reasonable because Tesla pushed back against unreasonable county regulation by Alameda County?

Did we forget the Federal Reserve is dumping hundreds of billions of dollars into the bond markets to prop up Boeing [1], Ford [2], and other exceptionally poorly run entrenched businesses who were lucky enough to have large amounts of debt issued?

[1] https://www.bloombergquint.com/business/the-non-bailout-how-...

[2] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/surging-ford-bonds-lead-credi...

How much twitter drama has Ford indulged in lately?

Elon whining about public health measures being "fascist", threatening to leave California, and then going cap in hand for more public money from the state he claims is limiting his "freedoms" is not just a bad joke, it's farcical.

The benchmark is results, not your public image. Where is Boeing's Crew Dragon/Falcon Heavy/Reusable Falcon 9/StarLink constellation? Where is Ford's EV manufacturing capacity and charger network?

When you are an innovator, you get some latitude to shit post. The public may not look fondly upon your antics, but shareholders have stood behind Musk (and if results continue, will likely continue to do so). California needs Tesla and SpaceX more than they need California. The rest of the world (China, Germany for Gigafactories, several countries have begged for one), and other states (Missouri, Oklahoma, Texas, and Colorado all have incentives to Tesla on offer), have shown they're willing to accommodate. No one is rushing to do the same for failing behemoths such as Boeing and Ford (both of whom are performing substantial layoffs, [1] [2]).

There is a balance to be struck between operational flexibility and public safety. IMHO, Alameda County overreached.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23021873

[2] https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/02/11/ford-f11.html

Elon has no loyalty to you. You're wasting your time being so slavishly loyal to him. You need not be his spaniel.

I have no loyalty to Elon. It just so happens our interests align (mitigating climate change, electrification of transportation, rapid deployment of utility scale energy storage, the commodification of heavy lift to orbit).

If you were doing these things, I'd support you. But you're not. Most aren't. I support those that are doing this work, necessary work. Elon would not be my first pick, but unfortunately, he’s the only pick at this scale. "The Devil You Know."

> It just so happens our interests align

They don't and never will align. He is a narcissistic attention-seeker. You don't figure into that.

The excuses you're making for him are embarrassing.

Appreciate the feedback.

Elon's really not worth the effort you put in to edit and re-edit your defenses of him. You're emotional about and are making excuses for someone whose primary interest is himself. It's weird. It really is like you're stuck in an abusive relationship.

As an outside observer to this conversation, you come off as more emotional than the OP. Just an FYI.

It's because you didn't see all the edits as they happened.

SpaceX is doing nothing wrong.

If California wants to spend money on training people for new jobs and SpaceX participates then the funds are being spent exactly the way the government wants and achieving the government's objectives (increased employment).

California also wants to subsidize electric cars in order to have less pollution and Tesla makes such cars. Those subsidies are being spent by the government and accomplishing government goals.

This in no way obligates Elon or his companies to support government policy in other areas.

He's not a freedom fighter sticking up for oppressed minorities here. He's a billionaire who is endangering his employees to make even more money. His employees are in a really bad situation right now, they get to choose between risking their livelihood or their health. He's forcing them to make this decision.

This is false. Tesla's startup plan specifically states employees who choose to remain at home will not be penalized for doing so. If you do choose to return to Fremont, PPE will be provided and social distancing measures will be enforced. These measure were implemented and tested at the Shanghai Gigafactory.

https://www.tesla.com/blog/getting-back-work

https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/T... (Warning: PDF)

They might not be penalized by Tesla directly or explicitly, but will they lose access to unemployment benefits if they have the opportunity to go back to work but elect not to? (This is a sincere question, I don't know the answer and wasn't immediately able to find one.)

It depends heavily on the interpretation of the CARES stimulus act [1], which provides requirements and guidance under what circumstances allow for unemployment benefits beyond the typical loss of employment. For example, if you are required to quarantine, are sick yourself from COVID, or need to provide care for someone else, you're eligible [2]. If this is a gap, it requires a legislative and fiscal policy fix.

[1] https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/hr748/BILLS-116hr748enr.p... (Warning: PDF)

[2] https://www.nytimes.com/article/coronavirus-stimulus-package... (Control-f "Unemployment Benefits")

> If you do choose to return to Fremont, PPE will be provided and social distancing measures will be enforced

This doesn't match what the workers themselves are saying:

https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/11/21254871/tesla-fremont-sh...

https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/12/21256665/tesla-reopens-ne...

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/may/12/tesla-wor...

> These measure were implemented and tested at the Shanghai Gigafactory

It's interesting. Elon's been keen on tweeting about American freedoms lately. I wonder when he'll do the same for Chinese freedoms.

Only someone like Elon Musk could have done this. If you or I pull a stunt like this, we'll just be thrown in jail and forgotten. So I think it's appropriate that he did it with a bit of flare.

What Elon Musk has proven above all else... is how little powers local counties / local municipalities truly have in these situations.

In most cases, the counties compete against each other, trying to host bigger and more expensive companies within them. Amazon proved the model when they were competing in 20+ cities for HQ2... and all the cities tried to offer lower and lower taxes to Amazon.

Same thing here. Tesla just makes a few threats about leaving the county, and then the county capitulates. Ultimately, these companies have the power to change the counties that host them. Even in open defiance of the law.

> Rule of law is important

I find it hard to blame the citizens of Alameda for not respecting the rule of law when Alameda brags about being a sanctuary city.

> Rule of law is important

It is. But it's also important that the rule of law not become tyrannical and oppressive. This is all the more reason that it's very important to put many checks and balances and deadlocks in the legislative process to greatly limit the degree to which it can become tyrannical. Preventing tyranny is a key prerequisite to getting members of society to respect the rule of law.

Musk is clearly on the rule of law side. County admin dumb dumbs are not about the law, they're about compliance.

> I find the "we'll just ignore laws we find inconvenient and disagree with"

If the laws were just inconvenient, Alameda wouldn't have given in. They are wrong and destructive and there's little reason for them other than putting authorities in a cosy spot (lockdown means nobody can blame authorities for casualties) while everyone else has to suffer.

It's stunning though how many people will just switch off their brains and chime in with the fearmongering when they get scared and instinctively turn to authorities for help, rationalizing their measures, however meaningless they may be.

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