Hacker News Reader

Comment by tastyminerals | Hacker News Reader

I feel like MS laptops are getting bashed left and right by various online experts these days without a decent reason. Apple products are not less cheaper and follow the same "100EUR for a charger" scheme. If you calculate the totals, MS laptop is no more experiensive than the Apple one. Except with MS products you also get a true mobile experience if that is what you are after.

The only drawback is Windows and its tooling. Which you can still circumvent with WLS. I wish Surface lineup was 100% Linux compatible, alas.

View on HN

(Not specific to Surface Go 2) I assure you there is sometimes a reason, which in my mind can be generalized as lack of attention to detail: I deployed Surface Laptop 3’s to my SMB and now hairline screen cracking [1] is popping up left and right. Why? Because MS opted not to put a rubber gasket around their screens so when they changed from fabric to metal wrist rests, the imperfect closure fit led to pieces of sand etc. obliterating screens.

When I account for my lost time dealing with support, and the occasional cost of replacing devices/accessories that support will not, MS devices are far more expensive than Macs.

[1] https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/8/21252634/microsoft-surface...

The build quality in Surface devices is terrible, ABSOLUTELY terrible.

I have a Surface Pro 2 where the (in)famous "VaporMG" coating layer was completely gone by the first year, leaving a pinkish-blueish-silverish combination of colors that makes the device look as if it was on ground zero at Hiroshima. The power button is flaky and no longer reliably turns the device on, the keyboard cover connector is flaky and covers periodically stop to work, etc. All of these are common issues.

Ironically I bought a Surface Pro 3 later on where the LCD connector died within warranty, so I just returned it and forgot about the Surface line altogether.

I have a dirt-cheap Acer laptop that has also been with more for a _decade_ now and it still looks better than the Surface Pro 2.

Weird, at my work there hasn't been a single problem with the Surface Pro devices in 2 years.

the surface pro 2 was released seven years ago. whatever your experience was then, it isn't relevant now. the surface pro line has undergone big design changes and improvements since then.

After being subscribed to Louis Rossmann's YouTube channel for a while, I'm not sure Macs are much better in that regard (e.g. butterfly keyboard issues and replacement program, the bizarre cooling solution in new MacBook Air, pin layout that's very susceptible to liquid damage, etc.)

Apple has curiously "periods" -- there are times in which they build reliable stuff and then there are times in which they just don't. E.g. 10 year old MacBooks which still work despite the fact that they are heavily dented, while the new keyboard breaks just by staring at it wrongly.

I have a 2011 model Mackbook Air. While it is not the best or powerful laptop I've used, the only problem it gave me so far is the power chord (which I had to replace). It is still working after all these years.

I am not a Apple fanboy - I hate that Apple makes shitty decisions (soldiering everything, removing headphone jack from phones, removing ports...) and everyone else copies them. That said, they do make good stuff, at least compared to others.

My next computer is likely going to be a windows one though - Thinkpads and Dells are much more value for money than Macs.

Most of Louis' criticism of Apple are not about the frequency of problems, rather on how they treat the consumer once problems happen.

He often makes fun of their "small number of users were affected" press statements that follow a certain pattern - denial, blaming the users (you're holding it wrong - though most of that is coming from tech media, not Apple themselves), begrudgingly admitting fault, addressing the issue after much pressure. So frequency also plays a role in it.

Not that other manufacturers are much better of course...

I’m not defending that design flaw but MacBook Pro’s haven’t exactly been free from issues themselves (up until their recent generation they had an ongoing problem with their keyboard that went on for years).

Frankly I miss the days when business machines weren’t made with aesthetics given as a priority.

Had the same experience with the pro 2 i think. Ran a small shop(15 peeps) and everybody liked the pro 2. I think we bought 5 or 6. One of those lasted more than a year. Heating, battery, screen, charger. And the dock was badly missing USB ports.

Hah. Reminds me of getting shards of plastic in my wrists from the original whitebook: the screen lid had two hard plastic "feet" rather than some rubber thing, over time the pressure and variour other stresses (that thing was full of hairline cracks all over the body) would chip away right where your wrists would rest: https://discussions.apple.com/content/attachment/155554040

The funny thing is they advertised this as a feature when it was launched because it was supposed to be more aesthetically pleasing and not collect dust etc. I guess there's a reason Apple still uses rubber after all...

Huh, wow. I got a hairline crack on the screen of my Surface Laptop 2 and thought it was just me and my carelessness. I will have to see if there’s any recourse for me since it’s outside the warranty window.

I agree. It is a design flaw I was well aware before making a purchase and bought a screen protector for Surface. It served me well so far, I am also more careful of not holding the laptop by the edge or slapping it too much. However, I think it is good since it forces you to be careful with the expensive gadget. Yes, the repairability is very bad and yes such are the costs for being detachable.

> The only drawback is Windows and its tooling.

I switched last year from using Linux and macOS for 10+ years to a surface laptop. At the beginning Windows was going on my way all the time, but now that I’m more familiar with its system and powershell, it’s way better, and I really enjoy it as a dev environment.

The main pain comes from a lack of familiarity. Once that’s behind, you can be quite productive using Windows.

I now spend almost all my time in powershell and only use WSL for some specific stuff.

Yeah, IMO if you start out by installing bash and trying to treat Windows like a Unix, you're in for some really bad time.

A lot of developer tooling works just fine in Windows environment and trying to fight the system with unix shell is not the best way to coexist.

Agreed 100% pre-WSL, but now it's changed with WSL. Have used Powershell for last five years, but bash on Ubuntu is great.

I had the opposite experience. Similar background, Used Windows heavily from DOS through XP. Started a job as Windows 10 had some major incremental releases and was eager to learn PowerShell and see what Windows had done in 10 years.

I earnestly wish I documented my disappointment when I encountered the same annoyances I hadn't seen since I left Windows because after awhile I forgot what they were. Annoying things like updates requiring reboots at least once a month, when an application was busy I couldn't move it out of the way (to do something else while I waited to see if it finished). I found PowerShell too verbose for everyday use, the "terse" commands too different and undiscoverable, everyone I worked with was still entrenched with BAT files, and to run PS1 files I needed to wrap it in a BAT file for security.

I glommed onto WSL, but found myself logging into an Ubuntu box we had because it was nicer.

I was happy my next job was a lot less heavy on Windows. I'd switch to Linux as my daily-driver and dual-boot Windows if I had to.

Do you mind elaborating what kind of problems you work on?

I'm almost the opposite... been on the insiders channel for WSL2 and Docker + WSL2 support has been really good since switching in early March. I did try it a bit over a year ago and wasn't nearly as pleasant... when WSL2 etc will hit mainline, who knows for sure, if it hasn't already.

This isn't a laptop and suffers from a bit of "neither one thing nor another" syndrome; it can be used as either a kinda awkward tablet, or a _really_ awkward laptop (good luck using one on your lap on a plane or train or something, say). I think a certain amount of scepticism is warranted.

If you _just_ want a laptop, a laptop will be far better than this thing. If you just want a tablet, an iPad will be far better than this thing. If you want both... well, maybe it works, as long as you don't want to use it in laptop-y scenarios and you're okay with Windows' tablet experience? It feels pretty niche.

I disagree in case of Surface Book. I didn't try Go.

This is a powerful premium laptop which can be used not only for pleasant programming experience due to good keyboard and 4k screen but also gaming due to powerful GPU card. It does not get hot and loud as much as any traditional gaming laptop with the same GPU card because GPU and CPU are separated (GPU under the keyboard and CPU in the detachable screen). I mean this is like the biggest advantage of all Surface Book laptops that makes them powerful, silent and cool at the same time. It might be not as powerful as dedicated gaming laptops but it is better because it is not even half as hot and loud. And which of your gaming laptops can run at least two hours without a socket? Honestly, the battery life of my wife's Mac Air 2019 is laughable in comparison.

It is also a good tablet. The only disadvantage for as a tablet is battery life which is far less than in iPads and Android devices. But neither of them is 15 inch and is equipped with an iCore.

There is no alternative on the market for Surface Book 2. Recent Surface Book 3 might not be more powerful as the audience expected but I would go for it all the same just because how much more malleable this machine is. If you need a mobile pc, this is the one.

Funny how different people come to different conclusions. I have a Book 2 and I regret it almost every day. The dock constantly runs out of USB resources, when I detach the tablet the external screen configuration gets f...ed up in random ways forcing me to rearrange screens and font sizes for a few minutes, the tablet mode feels very awkward to use and for its spec and price the Book 2 is not very fast.

My company also HP Zbook laptops. Next time I will get one of those those again instead. Not a very elegant laptop but it works.

Emm, screen config not retained is an OS issue and not a laptop tbo. I agree that tablet mode is not convenient but you are free to stay in desktop mode. USB resources are not enough but I never ran out of USB ports because I have no use for them. I connect everything via Bluetooth, mouse, headphones. Mini display port for external monitor.

Yes, for the price of ~2k you can buy a more powerful laptop. But how less powerful a 1.5 year old Surface i7 with GTX1060 even nowadays? I think the whole performance debate is a big exaggeration unless you're getting into high-end gaming on 4k resolutions or deep learning. If I needed power, I would never go with a laptop no matter how powerful it is. Buy a PC because this is what they are for.

I am personally over with classical monoblock laptops with GPU and CPU squeezed together. It feels just dated.

“Emm, screen config not retained is an OS issue and not a laptop tbo”

My HP Zbook didn’t have these issues with the same OS. I could take it to a meeting, plug it back into the docking station and things would be like before. With the Surface in 80% of cases something gets messed up. I suspect it has something to do with the drivers.

The high res screen on it also causes problems forcing me to constantly adjust the font scaling.

In general, what’s the point of getting a very expensive Surface Book if it’s not really better ?

Emm, screen config not retained is an OS issue and not a laptop tbo

It is when the same company is making both.

> pleasant programming experience due to ... 4k screen

I opted for a 4k 15" screen when buying a new laptop, precisely for this reason. I was so disappointed to find out that I could barely see anything on the screen at 4k without using the magnification function, and that was before I needed reading glasses. I've been using it in 1080p ever since, and I regret not getting a 1080p native resolution, because mixed resolutions are a pain with multiple monitors.

> I've been using it in 1080p ever since, and I regret not getting a 1080p native resolution, because mixed resolutions are a pain with multiple monitors.

This is mainly a problem with Windows and some desktop Linux setups. macOS handles mixed DPI displays without issue.

I have a 1st-gen surfacebook, and this thing for sure is not quiet or cool. It can barely run MTG Arena at 720p, much less stream it at the same time. Forget about any serious game. It gets incredibly hot, especially on the GPU, as there's only one fan for the keyboard area pointing at the screen, and it's tiny. The fan on the tablet portion is woefully inadequate for an i7, so spins up shortly after start and never spins down. And the full metal chassis means the entire computer gets hot.

Perhaps the battery life might matter more if it actually slept when it was closed, but the large number of spurious wakeups in bag caused me to assume the battery will be drained whenever I arrive.

To be fair, I've been using my Surface Pro 4 for a bit over four years now, and pre-lockdown I was on 2 round-trip flights a month on average.

No issue whatsoever using it on the tray. On the contrary, my size and the reduced seat pitch in most narrow body aircrafts made my other machine (a 15" macbook) rather unusable.

Anecdotally, I tried OG Surface Pro back when it launched. On my lap the kickstand was extremely unstable; on high speed rail chairs the angle of kickstand was extremely steep and uncomfortable; on university desks and cafeteria tables it was okay but never good; only on airplane couches and Starbucks tables, which I’m not as privileged to say I use with frequency, it fit, at all.

The kickstand has reportedly improved since, but the problem is that it’s a highly engineered design for multiple but precisely pre-determined situations, with a limited adaptability.

Traditional laptop hinges on the other hand, oh they work beautifully between 0 to 1.1g under any posture, if you could put it on a lap or table it’ll be nice. That’s it. Way better than the kickstand.

Keep in mind the device "lapability" improved a lot in the subsequent iterations, for two reasons:

- the kickstand is now freely adjustable, you can set it at any angle (there are no pre-determined stops)

- the keyboard "sticks" to the bottom of the front side, this both gives the device more rigidity on your lap and improves the typing angle

I have never used an OG Pro, but I've used an RT and the difference is night and day

Same experience here. I hear the 'unusable on lap' sentiment seemingly often (including in the OP article itself). Yet, I honestly cannot tell is because it's only the ones with a bad experience speaking up and the rest remaining silent, or because there really is a problem I'm not aware of. And in both cases: I honestly wonder how that is possible? Is my body different in some way that I don't see the difference between a Surface and a laptop for lap use? Or do I do things in another way than others? Are my legs longer than average? I mean I just put my legs next to each other, put the thing somewhere on my lap, screen like 15cm in fron of my knees, adjust the stand so it's in an angle I normally use and that's it. The only problem I could see is that if you'd want the screen to be roughly where your knees are that is impossible. But for me that distance is just a bit too much to be able to read text comfortably and I cannot rest my arms anymore because of how far the keyboard is.

https://msegceporticoprodassets.blob.core.windows.net/asset-...

This image is from Microsoft.com. Think how much his upper torso will have to bend to look at the middle of his thighs.

Sure, but the image shows a desktop. I'm talking about differences of the Surface vs a 'standard' laptop when used on your lap.

I’m talking the combination of a chair similar to that and Surface devices. I guess people who don’t have problems with Surface sits less often in surfaces that high and upright.

That seems very awkward versus a laptop, though; in particular you'd have stay very still. I'd expect it to be particularly problematic on a bus or train, where there was movement.

The hinge is sturdy so in comparison with a laptop you don't have one big contact area with your legs but the bottom of the kickstand and the botom of the machine itself which don't move with respect to each other. The bottom of the keyboard kan move wrt the rest but only in one plane. I don't see how movement of whatever you're sitting on changes much in how the thing sits on your lap. I also don't encounter that when I'm on a bus or so.

In theory the lap thing can be fixed with a third-party keyboard (when it gets released). I've been patiently waiting for something like this for my surface go because you're spot on - lap use is basically impossible. Time will tell if it's any good:

https://www.brydge.com/pages/designed-for-surface-tablets

I agree a laptop is a better laptop but for a tablet I find surface much better than ipad, and at a pinch (like on vacation) I can use a bluetooth keyboard and do some urgent work on it.

I've never understood this complaint. I've had multiple Surface Pros and have never had problems with it in my lap, even on long train rides abroad.

Windows does have its flaws (e.g. the useless built-in search), but its window management and taskbar UI is the best of any OS I've ever seen - the live previews on hover, the way it interacts with middle click just like browser tabs/links, the window snapping with multiple monitors, etc. We'll see what WSL 2 brings to the table.

I use the start menu only for opening programs.

For file search, use the program called Everything(). It's the first icon pinned on my taskbar, so the shortcut (Win+1) works.

https://www.voidtools.com/

> window management and taskbar UI is the best of any OS I've ever seen

I /really/ missed in Linux where MMB-drag and RMB-drag to move resize windows without grabbing small UI dressing. The taskbar fills too quickly (you can't read the window text) and when it groups by Application it's not really any different than macOS' dock. I didn't find the stickiness or snapping that helpful.

I tried to embrace the window management and taskbar UI, but I greatly prefer both macOS and the many Linux options. I later tried add-ons to get Windows to add features I missed and unsurprisingly found those clunky as well.

>The taskbar fills too quickly (you can't read the window text) and when it groups by Application it's not really any different than macOS' dock

I just use the default setting where it doesn't show the text ever (only grouped icons), but I don't need it, because when you hover over a multi-window icon, it very quickly shows the previews (with just the right small amount of hover delay). They are live previews, so if some animation is happening in a window, you'll see it.

https://i.imgur.com/85Ct0Fp.png

As far as I know, macOS doesn't do anything like that, without 3rd party apps at least.

You can also middle-click on the app icon to launch a new instance of the application - e.g. a new terminal window in this case - no need to hunt for a "new window" menu item. This is analogous to how browser links and other UI elements (bookmarks, back button, etc.) behave.

You can middle-click on one of the previews to close it - so you don't have to aim for the small X in the corner. Any workflow is much faster when you can get away with imprecise movements.

Hovering over the preview hides all other windows for the duration of the hover (dim transparent rectangles of non-full-screen windows remain) which is useful if you just need a quick glance without switching to the app - you can do that with just mouse moves, no clicks needed - which means you can always go back to your original view by moving the cursor away.

There is a project that tries to recreate this in Linux (https://github.com/M7S/dockbarx), but it has a number of bugs and lacks polish in general.

I also miss alt+right click to resize and alt+left click to move a window from Linux - having to be precise is annoying and slows you down, but overall I still like the Windows UI better.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

I generally prefer title text to previews (I find it annoying browsers seem to be phasing titles out when possible). The only context I've ever used live previews is with VMs when I'm waiting for an action to complete...I never really liked using the MS thumbnails or macOS' Exposé.

Next time I use Windows I'll check out those other shortcuts mentioned.

What's wrong with the built-in search?

I'll agree the start menu search can be slow on occasion & instead of giving me an app will give me a Bing search on IE. That's my only complaint. Otherwise I like how I can search for just about anything with it.

I'm a huge fan of the processes/windows search (Ctrl+Win) to help me find an app on a different visual desktop or a browser tab hidden among the weeds.

It seems ok now that I'm trying it, but I definitely remember not being able to find a specific settings screen (I think it was network connections) even when typing its literal exact name. Same for various applications. Maybe they fixed it in one of the more recent Windows 10 updates.

> processes/windows search (Ctrl+Win)

Just tried that combination, and it did nothing. What feature are you referring to?

Use Microsoft Surface Laptop 2 and 3 for work, have to disagree that the only drawback is software. The trackpad is significantly worse on Microsoft devices than Apple fairly consistently. Even the new Magic Keyboard for iPad Pro trackpad, albeit smaller in size, is more sensitive and accurate than the Surface Laptop 3's.

Odd, I use both daily (original surface book, surface go, 2018 MBP) and completely disagree. Microsoft trackpads are the only ones I've come across that are just as good as Apple. You are the only person I've heard bash them. I've got hundreds of peers in the same boat and the MS trackpads are universally lauded.

Don't take my word for it, or your peers. Just google around for surface trackpad reviews and feedback. I'm sure it's fine for plenty of people, but I'm not alone with my opinion.

After 30 seconds of searching, I found exactly my experience: people find the trackpads equal, generally prefer the physical button of the surface, and prefer the more advanced gestures that Apple has provided.

Regardless, I'll trust my own experience and those of peers I know are unbiased to someone who may or may not be getting paid for their review online.

If by "advanced gestures" you're referring to two-finger touch right-click, or two-finger scroll smoothness, then I would agree. I'm not even trying to hold Microsoft trackpad to the same standard of four-finger advanced gestures on the Mac, just what I would consider to be really basic stuff.

I can see though that someone who prefers physical buttons on the trackpad would not have the same complaints...

I strongly, strongly disagree. The trackpad on my SB2 is terrible compared to the one on my MBP. It’s much smaller, two-finger right-click is unreliable, and the motion feels worse. Along with the glossy screen it’s my main complaint about the Book.

That's purely software, if you use Windows under Boot Camp on a MacBook it will be identical to a PC

> That's purely software, if you use Windows under Boot Camp on a MacBook it will be identical to a PC

Right, but Microsoft owns both the hardware and the software stack here. It's not like they're reviewing an Asus laptop and complaining about the trackpad.

It's hard for me to believe that Microsoft would not invest in first-class touchpad drivers for Windows for their flagship devices, given that the touchpad is the main way someone would interface with their device, but it's possible that it's entirely a software issue I guess.

Drop Synaptics' driver and use Microsoft's precision touchpad driver.

> The only drawback is Windows and its tooling. Which you can still circumvent with WLS.

WSL, and Terminal, is Windows tooling. It's a Microsoft project, a Microsoft compiled Linux kernel, a `wslu` package that runs in Linux is built by Microsoft, //$wsl using the P9 file server forked by Microsoft. It might sound like a nit pick, but they're spending a lot of time and effort and money to ensure Windows has a better Unix experience than macOS.

The nice thing about them is they're not just laptops but tablets as well. I love my Surface Book 2, the only iffy thing is the detachable portion, it is not 100% stable and if they can fix that I'd be set and buy only this laptop type for the rest of my life, not sure if they fixed it in the SB3 or not though.

I would love to buy a Surface Go but Windows 10 lacks some apps I'd like to see on a tablet that are already on both iOS/iPadOS and Android. If they matched the top 25 apps both platforms have in each respective app category, they'd probably have a better chance to have me buy Microsoft only tablets. I guess their niche they can fill is Office on the go, but life's about more than just Office.

Mind you, I tried the PWA version of some of the top apps, but they lack features on Windows 10 (who apparently adds PWA's to their store).

I am not clear how this is a true mobile experience versus an iPad. This seems like an iPad competitor, not a MacBook Pro competitor, and the iPad is quite a mobile solution.

It’s a much different solution than this, for sure, but it is a mobile solution.

I recently got a 10.2 inch iPad to add to my home setup of a 27-inch iMac and a 12.9 inch iPad Pro because I wanted something super portable that I could do work on when I am chasing the kids around. It’s really portable, and I can get a surprising amount of work done on it.

In terms of build quality, MS laptops need to priorities quality over looks.

Windows software is still a mess.

I wish they that drivers can be used by all major linux distro and ensure that the surface lineup is 100% linux compatible.

Microsoft should develop a Desktop environment on linux based on the metro design or Fluent design system which will suit the touch part on the surface tablets.

As a windows user and primarily Android users, when I bought an ipad a few months ago I was stunned at the things that were either unintuitive or impossible to do in ipad (I just want an alphabetical list of all the apps installed. Is that so hard? Why is it is still so hard to go back one space in a text field?)

Looking at the new ipad pro keyboard monstrosity, I can't imagine how people wouldn't laugh it out of the room if microsoft, google, or samsung released the same product. Doubles the weight of the tablet and has that weird hinge thing, and that price.

The surface pros are almost 100% Linux compatible fwiw. I don't about the other products.

> The only drawback is Windows and its tooling

Oh goo, I was worried it was a serious drawback.

Also try reselling a Surface Go 2 in 3 years compared to a MacBook Air/Pro.

This is debatable but I would agree to some extend that it is easier to resell MacBook Air/Pro than Surface. I would also argue that it is rather due to higher familiarity with Apple products, not hardware. In anyway, this is not an argument in favor of Apple products.

I would say it definitely is an argument. I recently sold my 2016 15” MacBook Pro for $1,400. It held on to nearly 50% of its value.

I tend to upgrade every three years and this cuts the effective price in half. It is no different than factoring in resale value on a car or house purchase.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com