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Comment by kazinator | Hacker News Reader

memset is absolutely required to zero out padding bytes. Padding is part of the structure size, and memset hast to zero out exactly as many bytes as it is told.

memseting a structure to zero is commonly done in programs that send structure outside of the process (like passing it to communication or storage-related system calls) because the padding can leak sensitive information. That better work!

If the size of a structure didn't include the padding, then pointer arithmetic on structures wouldn't work correctly, and arrays of them would be broken/impossible. Arrays are the reason for the padding; given a struct foo * p, we need p + 1 to be properly aligned (for the sake of accessing all the members of * (p + 1). So struct foo cannot have a size like 5, if it contains a member of type int or anything else with alignment requirements.

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memset is not required to do anything if the side effects are not observable; this is the entire reason why memset_s needed to be added (and also why __attribute__((packed)) is recommended for anything that is being sent directly over the wire, if this kind of construction cannot be avoided). Compilers often inline and unroll small, constant-size memsets anyways, and since it is not possible to observe a consistent padding in C in a standards-compliant way to my knowledge, an optimizing compiler should be able to legally leave those bits alone.

I've been duped into participating in misleading thread without brushing up on this. The problem is that memset can be entirely optimized away when it's a dead store, which is reasonable:

  {
    struct foo x;
    // sensitive calculation with x
    memset(&x, 0, sizeof x);
  }

Basic liveness analysis (compiler technique from the 1970's if not older) tells us that the object has no "next use" at the point where it is being written by memcpy. That's a dead store that can be eliminated. The object is about to become toast. This is a problem for sensitive code (e.g. crypto).

I've been discussing only this case:

  {
    struct foo x;
    memset(&x, 0, sizeof x);
    // init x
    syscall(&x, sizeof x);
  }

Here, the memset cannot be optimized away. So we can only have some academic discussion about how part of the memset could be optimized away: that part which flosses the structure padding between the members and at the end.

That's a stupid and dangerous optimization that threatens a whole lot of code in the wild.

A good defense against this sort of time-wasting nonsense is "I'm not fixing anything without a repro test case; have a nice day".

As I was discussing with 'gpderetta, it's complicated: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23002423. Depending on how the followup to the DR I mentioned goes, your call is somewhere between "illegal as this invokes undefined behavior" and "sending structs across the wire better not be an infoleak". We'll see where the standards people take this. (Personally, I'm of the opinion that reading padding should always give an unspecified value–that is, a read can give an arbitrary, possibly inconsistent but valid value for that byte, but copies of it would have a fixed value. Code in the wild that has historically not cared for standards compliance anyways, e.g. Linux, should get a GCC flag for "make my padding bits what I want them to be".)

Well, the contents of the padding bits is legally observable (with a memcpy for example) so the compiler can't assume they are unovservable.

As far as I understand, padding bits are indeterminate until you observe them via a memcpy into a buffer, at which point they will collapse (only in the buffer) to some arbitrary but now-constant value. Is this correct?

I think you are right in the general case. Definitely padding bits are not preserved during copies, but I think that at least in some cases they might be preserved, at least I think that if you memset+memcpy, the memcpy is guaranteed to see the zeros (what if you want to end the lifetime of the object and simply reuse the storage as an array of chars?). But there is divergence between C and C++ and also an area quite in flux (the notion of lifetimes of objects and memory locations gets tweaked every standard in C++, not sure where we are at now).

edit: interestingly, Biriba is yet another game in the canasta family, my theory is that different groups were originally playing these differents variants, but when they gained knowledge of the more popular variant (burraco), they started playing it but kept calling it with the original name. I guess that up until the internet era, these games were mostly passed via oral knowledge in casual groups.

edit2: macchiavelli [1] is another very fun game of the same family, but a lot more puzzle solving oriented.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machiavelli_(Italian_card_game...

I looked it up for C, and as far as I can tell this has not standardized. (The Defect Report I read, which seems to have the latest opinion, literally calls such things "wobbly values". I'm not joking.) The TL;DR of Defect Report #451 seems to be that this is needs some work from the standard. In the case of an automatic struct or whatever (so you can't pull the bytes out from under it and reuse it) I think the consensus seems to be tending towards Heisenburg-ish values that have values that can change between reads, and certain library functions will be legal to call on them so that they "collapse" the state in the view that you've just created. For your case, I would have the question of whether two objects (e.g. a char array and a struct carved from that array) can share the same memory; in this case I would intuitively tend to agree with you that the padding bits are visible from the longer-lived object, kind of like an ad-hoc union. But I am not a licensed language lawyer, so I am not quite sure on that point.

I appreciate your edits, by the way ;)

Thanks for hunting down the details.

And it seem that I should double check which comment I'm editing before submitting :)

memset_s is a pointless misinvention. I can't think of any situation in which I would use memset, and not want it to be what memset_s is claimed to be.

Which is to say that memset_s should just be called memset; there is no need for memset to be doing stupid things so that people must use memset_s.

I have no plans to use memset_s (ever), or to upstream any fix that involves using it unless the author provides a repro test case, and a proof that the problem can't be fixed with compiler options that make the problem go away with memset.

In the worst imaginable scenario, I will #define memset memset_s everywhere (after the inclusion of <string.h> of course, not before, and an #undef memset).

(The #undef memset may be enough, in fact, if the only problem is that memset is #define'd to some compiler built-in that doesn't properly implement classic C90 memset in all cases.)

Agree. memset should be secure by default. That means it should not be optimized away by the compiler. And second the secure variant should flush the content, so that cache attacks can not read secrets which were memset'ed, but still in the cache on broken CPU's (Intel).

sloooooooooooooooow. No, really, do you want a full flush every time you do a memset? That would be horrendous for performance.

"And second the secure variant should flush ..."

Probably means the extra-secure variant, more secure than the regular non-optimized-away memset that really clears the memory, but without the flush.

Yeah, that's a more reasonable interpretation.

Most of the Annex K * _s functions are pretty stupid, to be honest, but this is one that is actually useful. It's not that memset is doing stupid things; rather it's being smart and skipping work that it's not required to do.

memset has always been required to set N bytes starting at a given address to zero. That's the requirement. Been that way since it appeared in AT&T Unix and beat BSD's bzero to the ANSI C punch.

There is no need for a broken memset that fails to set some of the bytes, so that a fixed one under a different name has to be used in its place.

If you're using memset such that it's okay for memset not to set some of the bytes, and you'd like them not to be set if that makes things faster, then you shouldn't be using memset. You're using a hammer to drive a screw: wrong tool.

C has perfectly good initialization and assignment for structures.

End of story; I'm going to walk away pretend I never read this subthread, re-joining the hordes of C programmers using memset in the normal way, adding to the countless lines of code that do it that way and are never going to be changed.

This bullshit will be backpedaled out of the standard eventually, you just wait.

…and assigning to a variable is supposed to put some bytes at a certain address, yes. Except compilers will skip doing so if you never read from the variable again, and the same thing happens here: the compiler can "know" that it has no need to actually do the assignment, as writing to padding bytes is not required to actually do anything and trying to observe the value is currently the subject of debate but somewhere between "undefined" and "whatever you get out of it has nothing to do with what you think went in".

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