Comment by ajays | Hacker News Reader

Comment by ajays | Hacker News Reader

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> Okay... so...? Did you wait 10 years for a Green Card while in immigration limbo? Do you even know the difference between then and now?

I waited 11 years, if it makes you feel better. And yes, I do know the difference between then and now. And you know why it's worse now? Because the demand is much higher! So, despite the INS's dickitude and the so-called "broken" immigration policies, MORE people are wanting to come here.

> So enough is enough? Will more hurt, esp with 10% unemployment? Maybe we should shutdown some VCs as well, since there are enough startups.

You need to comprehend before responding. The immigration system was as broken 20 years ago as it is today. During boom times it's broken; during bust times it is broken. During the dot-com boom, it was broken, and yet the dot-com boom still happened. It is a constant; you just route around it.

> Your argument doesn't make sense. According to you the US/Silicon Valley is the best place to breed startups.. but you want the potential founders to go elsewhere where they might not have the best chances. Does not compute.

It "does not compute" because you're not reading, just responding. I'm not saying that the founders should "go somewhere else". I'm saying that if they do choose to "go somewhere else", then that is not a bad thing; in fact, it has a lot of positive aspects to it. SV will be just fine.

I waited 11 years, if it makes you feel better. And yes, I do know the difference between then and now. And you know why it's worse now? Because the demand is much higher! So, despite the INS's dickitude and the so-called "broken" immigration policies, MORE people are wanting to come here.

The INS doesn't exist any more, and that's the least of the changes. It is not a simple issue of supply and demand, and while I don't want to minimize the headaches you went through 20 years ago, the legal landscape has changed considerably since then.

>I waited 11 years, if it makes you feel better. And yes, I do know the difference between then and now. And you know why it's worse now? Because the demand is much higher! So, despite the INS's dickitude and the so-called "broken" immigration policies, MORE people are wanting to come here.

Are you saying that just because people faced hardship earlier, it shouldn't be made easier now? If anything, the numbers show that MORE people are getting affected by the policies and MORE potential startups are getting nipped in the bud.

>You need to comprehend before responding. The immigration system was as broken 20 years ago as it is today. During boom times it's broken; during bust times it is broken. During the dot-com boom, it was broken, and yet the dot-com boom still happened. It is a constant; you just route around it.

I don't see any reason given for not fixing the system except handwaving here. Let me quote the article here:

>Unlike a lot of problems facing our country, this one is easy to fix. We just need to increase the numbers of permanent-resident visas available for those trapped in “immigration limbo”. And we should create a Startup Visa that is more inclusive than the VC/Super Angel bill that is being proposed. This may give the economy a significant boost at no cost to taxpayers.

What are your arguments against that paragraph?

It is like someone in the 1920s arguing against women's suffrage. 'Hey, we never had the right to vote, but we always still influenced politics by working around it. There are some positive aspects to not having the right to vote. Lets not support it.'

You seem to be arguing two orthogonal points here.

On the one hand, you're saying that America's future will suffer dire consequences if the immigration system is not fixed.

On the other hand, you're saying it is such a hardship that people have to go back when their visas expire, things are tough for immigrants, etc.

Just step back a little and think rationally a little. If things are so bad, then why _are_ people trying so hard to get in? Do you see long lines outside the Chinese embassy? The Indian embassy?

Once again: in the 20 years I've observed the system, it is as broken as ever. And during these 20 years, we've been through the Biotech boom, Internet boom, and are on the verge of another boom.

cooldeal's criticism is that your world view is binary; there is no "better" or "worse", only "broken" and "just dandy".

The problem argued is that the system prevents people from starting a business in the U.S. - something a "rational" person who is able to "comprehend" wouldn't conflate with everyone being prevented from starting a business.

The system could be better. That's hardly a controversial statement.

One of the biggest problem in this environment is the survivorship bias.

His worldview isn't binary. He's merely providing some perspective by pointing out the system has been similarly broken for a while and apparently startups have still been starting up all the while.

As a non-American without Green Card, I still think the startup visa is dubious. People who really want to do software startups in the US have been doing it for a while (typical example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippe_Kahn ). I strongly doubt the US government (or board of VCs etc) will be able to predict success when deciding who should get the startup visas and the employment argument isn't convincing. Reddit, YC's most successful company, employs about 4 people I think?

>> And during these 20 years, we've been through the Biotech boom, Internet boom, and are on the verge of another boom

Are you missing the possibility that there might have been more/better booms and outcomes if immigration laws were not as fucked up?

I'd like to call you out on something my gut tells me.

IMHO, you come across to me as someone who's bitter. You're bitter that it took you 11 years to get your green card, therefore all these other younger kids shouldn't have an easier time than you, because you paid your "dues" (from your perspective).

I disagree that immigration is worse now because of demand, I think it's largely to do with 9/11.

I think you're inherently misguided that a broken process should remain broken - just beause. I'm really disappointed with your sentiment, given that you yourself are an immigrant and you know how painful this process is. Wake up, and think of others - not just of yourself.

Good day.

> If things are so bad, then why _are_ people trying so hard to get in? Do you see long lines outside the Chinese embassy? The Indian embassy?

I really, really hate this line of argument. "Oh the US is so great that everyone wants to be here! Do you see these kind of lines to get into North Korea?", well obviously not. I think you'll find similar lines to get into western Europe though. Why do you feel compelled to compare the US to 3rd world countries?

>On the one hand, you're saying that America's future will suffer dire consequences if the immigration system is not fixed.

Not exactly, but it will definitely help if it is fixed.

>On the other hand, you're saying it is such a hardship that people have to go back when their visas expire, things are tough for immigrants, etc.

>Just step back a little and think rationally a little. If things are so bad, then why _are_ people trying so hard to get in? Do you see long lines outside the Chinese embassy? The Indian embassy?

>Once again: in the 20 years I've observed the system, it is as broken as ever. And during these 20 years, we've been through the Biotech boom, Internet boom, and are on the verge of another boom.

All those immigrants can be easily turned into potential startup founders by increasing the permanent visa numbers. Many of them are highly educated and experienced. More startups = More potential good for the economy. What is your argument against this?

>I waited 11 years, if it makes you feel better. And yes, I do know the difference between then and now. And you know why it's worse now? Because the demand is much higher! So, despite the INS's dickitude and the so-called "broken" immigration policies, MORE people are wanting to come here.

>You need to comprehend before responding. The immigration system was as broken 20 years ago as it is today. During boom times it's broken; during bust times it is broken. During the dot-com boom, it was broken, and yet the dot-com boom still happened. It is a constant; you just route around it.

Were startups so easy to found 20 years ago? Were there mobile apps that one can develop in part time?

Vivek is trying to lobby for a better future. Just because people used to walk uphill both ways in snow to school in the past then doesn't mean you shouldn't try to fix it atleast now.

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