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Comment by coldpie | Hacker News Reader

Yes. I'm an Android user who is absolutely sick of phablets. I have a Pixel 3A (5.6") and it is way, way too big. I've been quite excited about this iPhone SE announcement. However, the lack of a headphone jack is a huge negative, and 4.7" is the absolute largest I think is reasonable. A little smaller would've been ideal. I'm undecided on whether to switch to the SE, but I genuinely hope it sells like crazy. Then maybe the Android copycat manufacturers like Google will copy the small form factor, but add in a headphone jack. One can dream...

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My current phone has no headphone jack and it's been an absolute pain the whole time. Adapters are hit-or-miss and generally suck. Even high-end devices (mine was over $800) often have hissing due to the analog signal running fractions of a millimeter from a bunch of digital signals.

Adding insult to injury, music objectively sucks with bluetooth. A good DAC takes space and power. Multiple drivers take space and power. Bluetooth modems require space and power and generate interference simply because they are modems. When you try to shove all of that inside a tiny earphone, there are going to be massive tradeoffs.

On the flip side, my phone does have a headphone jack and it's been a perennial weak spot. Debris gets in there far too easily to the extent that it doesn't even allow me to use a standard headphone cable.

I'm not an audiophile, so wireless headphones and streamed music is more than good enough for me - but as someone who has a headphone jack and would be more than willing to use it, it's not exactly been a bed of roses after a couple of years of use.

Am sure a manufacturer with better QA than OnePlus might be better, or if I'd have wrapped my phone in bubble-wrap every time I place it in a pocket it wouldn't have got stuff in there. But that's the anecdata from someone with one.

This was solved on otterbox cases with a little flap that clips in and covers the jack.

a case that essentially triples the size of your phone doesnt seem like a solution

I personally can't stand using a phone without a thick case. They give you a really comfortable grip on the phone. Modern phones are horrible to hold without a case.

I'm a bit clumsy, I seem to drop anything I even come near.

I have an iPhone 7, whenever I take it out of it's case it just seems to fly straight out of my hand.

Most smartphones remind me more of fine jewelery, or something that was intended to sit in a locked display case.

The best part about having a bulky case is it removes so much stress. Dropping your phone doesn't matter. You can throw it across the room. It's insane how something designed to be taken everywhere and used regularly is so fragile.

Yeah, I don’t get it. Well I suppose if you want the protection you just put a case on it <shrug>.

I remember cycling down the hill and having my Nokia 6610 fall out of my pocket, front n back case n battery flying every which way down the road and thinking nothing of it.

Times have changed.

Absolutely hate having cases on my phones. Almost all make it hard to slide into a pocket, make it far too thick for my hands, and take away the elegance of the design and the "hand feel" (I know that last point will get short shrift here, but enjoying using a device is important).

Buy a simple rubber jack insert. Problem solved.

>Am sure a manufacturer with better QA than OnePlus

Funny, IMO my 7T is by far the best quality phone I have tried and that includes Apple and Google phones.

A headphone jack can be easily cleared of debris with a wooden toothpick. Before I figured that out I also found it impossible to keep using the jack.

Also a great way to ruin the contacts and disable it forever. Use compressed air and something other than a toothpick. Eeek.

I have never had an issue using wooden toothpicks for the headphone and lightning cable jacks. It feels like you'd really have to try to break the pin connections that way

I've cleared it out a few times, but I think stuff in there's gotten damaged now. It's a slight inconvenience when my headphones aren't charged or I can't use them, but again as anecdata, losing the headphone jack having one in the device hasn't exactly changed my world.

I use an interdental brush. It's soft and designed for getting debris out of sensitive places. Works a treat.

I've found a paperclip to work the best. Just bend it around a joint a couple of times until it snaps off and you have a little fish hook that'll grab onto any lint and pull it out with minimal risk of damaging the connectors :)

I've spent about $600 on various Bluetooth headphones and nothing beats the simple plug and play of a half decent $50 corded set.

Add to that the fact that fully cordless earbuds are beyond ergonomic failure. At least corded can hang around your neck. Bud's one has to pop in and out, hold, put in your pocket. The idea of continuing conversations even if they have passthrough is very rude

When I'm sweating at the gym or out in the rain the last thing I want is expensive headphones, earbuds or especially over the year. I'm likely not listening to (nor in an environment promoting) the highest fidelty music. I want a pair of < $20 ear buds that when grubby or stop working are easily replaced. Blue tooth may work 98% of the time but the old 3.5mm audio is 100%

Counterpoint: I got really sick of the cable constantly yanking on my ears, so I got some Jabra Elite Active 65ts and I've used them for thousands of miles of running since then. The sound quality is great, they're comfortable (I never even notice them once I put them in), the case charges them so I don't need to remember, and they keep running like a champ in the rain. I couldn't go back to using wired earbuds for running at this point.

With a jack you have the choice.

I recently got Bluetooth headphones for exactly the same reason as you, but continue to use them wired with my computer because it's just better. Bluetooth works almost all the time, but not 100%.

I sleep with wired earbuds and white noise. They're $5 cheapos because they break every couple of months or so. and yeah, when working out, I have another set of cheaper earbuds, wired. Wireless might be nice for workouts, but when I tried it, I just kept having to remember to charge them - yet another 'thing to charge' that I didn't want to bother with.

To me, no headphone/earphone experience has ever been better than my AirPods. I have both the normal and Pro versions. They fit magnificently. No cable means nothing ever pulls on my ears, which over time can be painful and irritating. I can listen in bed on my back, on my sides, etc. It's not a big deal to take them out and just stick them in a pocket. And I know people complain about how easy they are to lose, but anecdotally, I have lost wired bluetooth earbuds in the past, but never lost an AirPod since I've gotten my first pair in early 2017.

> It's not a big deal to take them out and just stick them in a pocket.

Personally I can't agree. I've found they are a nightmare. Walk into a coffee shop, take them out to order. Have to take each out, at significant risk of dropping or fumbling. Back in pocket or held in hand. You then have a bag to carry, them. Wired Bluetooth would just drape easily around the neck whilst one conducts business.

I know few airpod users who have not lost one or dropped one on the street

> have lost wired bluetooth earbuds in the past, but never lost an AirPod since I've gotten my first pair in early 2017.

There is sadly little value in this statement

I never thought they could be good, but I now have Sony’s latest ones and the sound itself is genuinely better than any corded ones I’ve had over the years, up to over £100 and always carefully chosen. So I now believe it’s possible to make them good, though they are still expensive.

Comparing them negatively ergonomically to cabled earbuds is of course crazy :)

> Comparing them negatively ergonomically to cabled earbuds is of course crazy :)

Why?

I absolutely hated not having a headphone jack so I finally gave in a bought a pair of AirPods Pro. They are literally my favorite thing I've bought in the last decade.

I know it's an extremely expensive solution, and it's super shitty that Apple is basically forcing you to buy them, but now that I have them I love them.

> I know it's an extremely expensive solution, and it's super shitty that Apple is basically forcing you to buy them, but now that I have them I love them.

That’s an exaggeration. As mentioned in another comment Apple’s lightning to jack adapter is cheap, well done and enables all your high end headphones to be used with the iPhone. Just leave them attached to your headphones if you keep forgetting to bring them with you.

Plus, there are countless non-Apple wireless headphones options if you really don’t like adapters. Airpods are by no means mandatory.

Same with me I got AirPods, now I never use any other headphones (which I used to love).

I feel gross when I call them 'magical' but they sortof really are

Comments like this always make me really glad that I've never tried "good" audio equipment. I think music sounds great with my Sony XM3s and even my AirPods, and I don't have to travel with a DAC to experience it. shrug

I would consider myself an audiophile but I agree with you wholeheartedly. My AirPods and other headphones are more than good enough to listen to music when I'm out and about. I've never carried a DAC anywhere because, at least for me, the only time I'm listening to high fidelity stuff is when that's my sole objective. I don't need lossless quality when I'm listening to music on a train or on the subway or even while I'm working. I've never been taken out of my mindspace because I may have possibly heard a compression artifact.

It feels to me like people just want to complain to complain.

I think Tennyson's famous lines "Tis better to have loved and lost, / Than never to have loved at all" apply here. :)

I think it depends on what you want - I have some pricier headphones myself & I used to own monitor speakers too, but I never think to use any of it with a phone. I use a phone to be on the go, and having big headphones don't go with that well unless I'm sitting for a long time like an airplane.

So far I've been dealing with being on the go with the PowerBeats Pro - it's good enough for my purposes (light, good battery life, sound is good enough, somewhat compact), although I have it mainly because the AirPod Pros were not out then.

On one hand you avoid frustration, on the other hand you miss out on greater enjoyment.

I think I'd mentally adjust to the improved quality as the "new normal" pretty quickly and not get much out of it thereafter, leaving only the frustration when I couldn't have my audiophile quality. Seems like there's very little upside in it for me personally. I don't doubt that some people can genuinely sustain additional enjoyment out of it though.

I've noticed this trait with myself in a number of other aspects (operating system--no way I'm going back to Windows after having used Linux for years!), but luckily I haven't been spoiled by other people's good audio equipment yet.

If you haven't gotten into high-end audio already, I'm guessing you're not the type who "listens to equipment" as opposed to listening to music. So long as you're paying more attention to the music than the minute differences between exponentially more expensive pairs of headphones (or DACs and amps), you're probably not going to have the problem you're afraid of. I can rarely hear the difference between my midrange Sony wireless headphones and my friend's super fancy open-back headphones when there's an equalizer profile applied to each to make them sound similar.

And it's not even about only headphones. It's about billions of audio devices that take one thing as input: line-level audio. Home stereos, car stereos, portable amps, hotel-room docks and TVs, PA systems and mixers.

Then there's the idiotic problem that Apple created but never even solved: blocking the phone's sole port with a "headphone dongle," which prevents you from CHARGING the phone. So now if you want to listen to music while navigating (which kills the battery quickly), you're screwed.

I ended up buying a few of the Lightning-to-30-pin-iPod adapters, which you can then plug a USB+audio cable into. Yes, the ancient 30-pin iPod connector has line audio out, and the cool thing is that it's a true line out; the volume control has no effect on it, so you only have one volume control to dick around with (the one on the amp).

You can disable the volume on most phones. Granted "most phones" mean android.

Have you considered LG phones. They pride themselves on having a powerful DAC and obviously headphone jack

I think Apple’s official Lightning to jack adapter is fine for mobile use. Sure, it’s not ideal, but a headphone jack comes with other trade offs which have been discussed to death. At the end of the day I’m under no illusions that audio people like me, who enjoy good wired headphones, are a niche group. Most people don’t miss the jack at all and I think having the adapter is an acceptable solution for everyone else.

well for those of us who live with blue tooth head sets the lack of jack has not been an issue. even when I needed corded headphones the lightning to standard jack worked fine on my 8+. Since it can wireless charge I could go charge and used a corded headset, but to be honest I haven't found a need as the quality of blue tooth headsets/air pods has been superb

I live with a couple bluetooth headsets (Apple's AirPods, Bose QCs, and a pair of Beats), and I would say 95% of the time it's not an issue. There's the 5% of the time, however, where I need to re-pair the headset (not the biggest issue in the world) or the battery is dead (bigger issue) and I rarely, if ever, have the dongle on me (or even a pair of headphones to use the dongle with) - obviously the biggest issue when I want to listen.

That 5% of the time, while not often, is enough to remind me why I held onto my iPhone 6S until it finally died on me. As an iPhone user, I truly wish Apple would offer an iPhone 12 with a headphone jack, because I would absolutely buy it (two of the best pair of headphones I own are corded and it's a shame I can't just plug them into my iPhone when I please...)

Just for reference for others, the Apple headphone adapter I've used with my iPhone XS is rock solid, and I've never had a problem with it.

The main problem I've had with it is it gets lost--constantly. Now I'm generally disorganized, which probably explains why I cold never find it when I wanted it. I know some people leave it on the cable but my headphones get used much more on other devices than on the iPhone, so I was constantly pulling it off to plug into a mixer or keyboard, and it would get lost. In the end I solved it by junking my XS and getting a used SE.

Did you look at AudioQuest DragonFly DAC? I have been using it for a while and it works great. You can use your regular cable headphone with it.

It isn't about the screen size - it's about the external dimensions. This is almost as large as the Pixel 4A, Samsung S10e or iPhone 11. You are only saving a couple grams and a few mm.

Hopefully the Sony Xperia 5 II comes out soon - it should be smaller than this.

> almost as large as ... iPhone 11

See https://www.apple.com/iphone-se/specs/ for a comparison. It's at least a quarter smaller in both dimensions.

That image they include is disingenuous since the left sides of the two phones aren't aligned.

Does that really make that big of a difference? You can still tell the difference...

It does perceptually, not intellectually. Obviously anyone can see that it's offset, but the perception is still smaller than it actually is. There's no easy marker to re-align and try to make a better estimate.

Let's take a step back though- why are the phones in this image offset at all? Apple made the image, it's explicitly for a size comparison, so why make it harder to comprehend?

Good catch, I missed that.

You're right – the iPhone 11 is larger than I understood. I haven't bought a phone since the SE so my Apple info is a little rusty. But for the other phones I mentioned, it's quite similar.

https://www.gsmarena.com/compare.php3?idPhone1=9537&idPhone2...

Exactly this. I compared it to Samsung S10e and in terms of size new iPhone SE and Samsung S10e are really close:

(HxWxD in mm)

S10e: 142.2 x 69.9 x 7.9; mass 150g; screen 5.8"

SE: 138.4 x 67.3 x 7.3; mass 148g; screen 4.7"

Yep, the thing is, this phone has a huuuge forehead and chin which is comparable to from 5 years ago. Even if you don't want notches and pinholes, you can still have much thinner bezels without actually changing the body size. Look at this photo of Pixel 1 vs Pixel 2. They are both the same body size: https://i.imgur.com/VVqVt2x.png

Yes, I agree, this iPhone SE is too large. But it's at least a step in the right direction compared to where we've been heading.

I keep seeing this. I’m below average height and I only have use of one hand so I know I never use my phone with both hands. Between the single handed keyboard mode and double clicking on the home button to bring the screen down, I have no trouble using the 8 Plus with one hand.

You’re totally right!

Everyone here is just making things up!

Egregious sarcasm aside: I owned the 6s after the 5s and it was too large to use comfortably, I kept dropping it, it meant that I had to _only_ use the phone when I wanted to check something- maybe I could get away with just a glance but a quick reply required far too much time unless I used two hands.

So I got a Samsung Galaxy S8 which felt superb in the hand, but was still wayyyy too big, and it saw the pavement in a similar way; I got rid of it because Samsung’s Android is horrible and on the S8 it wasn’t removable and went back to the old form factor SE.

I haven’t dropped this phone once, it’s comfy, it’s light- easy to carry around and very easy to use in one hand while I wait and sip a drink or something.

Anecdote: my girlfriend has an iPhone X and due to the size of the thing she leaves it hanging around the apartment and has to go searching for it each time she wants to use it. It’s simply too uncomfortable to keep in her pocket.

Does Sony Xperia have a good track record of shipping stock android and releasing updates quickly? (I haven't checked).

usually very close to stock, fast monthly security updates but slower on full version number bumps

The sony xperia compact phone models were my go to for a while since they had covered all of that.

Yes, I in fact bought a Sony Xperia XZ2 Compact yesterday to replace my SE.

I don’t want to make you feel bad about your purchase, but I also looked at that phone:

It is only 1yr younger than the SE and about 90% as powerful on the CPU.

Apple has had a silicone advantage for a while, most androids are 1-2 years behind. :/

I definitely don't feel bad about my purchase, I don't play games (aside from puzzle games when flying) so I don't really care that much about high-end CPU/GPU. Regular apps running smoothly is all I need. I do love having a comfortable amount of RAM though, so that the phone doesn't forget app state when switching between apps. This happened way more often than I would've liked on the SE, not sure whether that was due to insufficient RAM or power saving measures though.

And whatever the case may be it's not like I had much choice when looking at phones of this size. And I'm so relieved to get rid of iOS, which with I had a 1.5 year hate relationship. I miss one thing though - the Apple emojis. Google's are way nicer than they used to be but nowhere near Apple's. Let's see if I find myself missing anything else in the upcoming days.

I miss my old Nexus 4. That was a great size.

I've said it here before many times - the Nexus 4 was nearly the perfect phone in every way and was the best Android phone ever made. Literally all I want in a phone is the Nexus 4 with software updated forever. Hell, you don't even need to upgrade the hardware, the 720p screen is fine. Just make the battery replaceable and you'd never need a new phone if manufacturers would commit to long term support.

That said, imagine the world was sane and how it could be upgraded: they could reduce the size of the bezel, give it a more efficient processor and better battery life. It wouldn't take much, but it seems like the only reason we can't have good things today is that it isn't profitable enough.

Somebody should do an open-hardware clone of the N4 form factor.

As much as I loved my Nexus 4, there's no denying its camera and battery were quite poor. I wouldn't call it the best phone ever made, even at its time

Granted, that's very keyed to my own needs for a phone. I replaced the N4 battery twice, on my own. I don't care whether my phone has a crappy 8 MP camera, or even a 1 MP camera, because I have a real camera. It's there for convenience or video chats.

On the other hand, I agree with you that there's plenty of room for improvement on the N4. But I don't think I've seen a significantly better phone. Certainly every phone I've had since then (and I'm careful to choose phones that meet my needs, not go for the flashiest model) has been worse.

and the rubber band around the screen was awesome, you never needed a case and it still had perfect grip!

There have usually been smaller androids available. But people didn't buy them in enough numbers to make them a thriving sector AFAICT. Samsung used to do the Galaxy Mini line, Sony always had smaller xperia's... But most folks seem to want a bigger, shinier screen.

That's not to say you're wrong in your desires, it's just they might not be widely shared.

I also hope this does well. It's a nice looking unit.

Most of the time those smaller form factor Android phone have had lackluster CPU, mediocre battery life, and crappy cameras. The SE is very close to a flagship product in terms of performance.

The Xperia Compacts were almost exactly their flagship counterparts but with smaller bodies/displays (and sometimes less ROM).

Indeed, I think it's been a vicious circle of lack of demand leading to lacklustre products.

This phone does look close to flagship in terms of cpu etc, though may be missing various features - multiple cameras etc - compared to actual flagships.

I'd like a tiny flagship....

There are a lot of reasons small Android phones didn't work. One of the biggest reasons Android went to bigger form factors first was because they needed the extra battery capacity. Android was a bit of a battery hog and, CPUs on the higher end Android phones were pretty demanding. That last bit is likely the biggest reason small form factor Android died an untimely death.

I'm pretty sure it was more market driven. Everyone laughed at the Galaxy Note when it launched, including me. Then we all went and bought one.

It seems to me there's room in the market for one or two high-end compact Android phones. It's not a big enough segment for every company to sell one profitably, but if someone really nailed that niche....

Lower-priced sports cars don't sell well lately either, but Mazda continues to do well with the MX-5. There's a lot of value in finding an underserved niche and making a product that fills it perfectly.

The problem with the Xperias is that there are counterfeits out there.

They make corded headphones that plug into the power port. My XS came with a set of corded pods in the box. I assume this phone will to unless the strip of for price reasons. Either way they are available.

I'm a recent purchaser of a slightly used old iPhone SE and it's great really. Headphone socket, does all I want, fast and snappy in practice, only cost like £100/$130.

(This subthread was originally in reply to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22878765)

My AirPods are the best in-ear headphones I’ve ever used. I definitely don’t miss having a tangled fraying cable that gets caught on things.

Plus I used to go through at least one set a year because the mechanical stress on the cable would break them. In the long run AirPods are actually cheaper.

really? I thought they would be more expensive in the long run since the battery will be degraded in 10 or so years to the point where you would have to constantly charge them

I suppose it depends on what brands of wired headphones you would normally buy but it would probably be cheaper to just reinforce the part that keeps breaking on you

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