The Man Who Got No Whammies (2015)
priceonomics.com
priceonomics.com
A related thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9570713
Links to the 2003 documentary mentioned in past threads are now dead, but it is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o75teVHwkT8
I think they're the sleaze.
Anyway the matter is settled, not in Ivey's favor. The fact that Ivey isn't in prison should settle the debate over the legality of what he did.
> It may be that it would not be cheating if a player spotted that some cards had a detectably different back from others, and took advantage of that observation, but Mr Ivey did much more than observe; he took positive steps to fix the deck.
Whether this means Ivey shouldn't be paid is more debatable IMO. On one hand, he didn't hide his actions and the casino in some sense accepted them into the game, nor did he tamper with the cards. On the other, he deceived the casino into acting outside the normal and intended rules of the game and in in his favour, which, regardless of the means used to do it, can be seen as cheating/dishonest.
I'd come down on the side of the latter, but it's not a particularly firm opinion. I can envision cases why I might feel differently, such as if someone _genuinely_ asked for the cards to be rotated due to superstition then _later_ realised that the cards are aligned as such (though I'm not quite how you'd show that was the likely order of events).
I mean, they found one radio one that failed, but almost all the others actually did work out for him?
Also his dollar bill serial no matching thing was foolhardy.
If I commit fraud (but don’t know it’s fraud) to win the Super Bowl, do I succeed or no?
I wouldn't call people like that fools, and pretty certainly the world would fall to pieces without them. That said, I don't think I can really blame anyone too much for not valuing good, hard, honest work in this world where many people are simply born rich and many others become rich by gaming the system and/or screwing people over.
For example, when playing board or card games, I always try and discover some dominant, completely broken strategy that is definitely not in the "spirit" of the game. Some people have gotten very angry at me because of this, but isn't this how games are supposed to be played? The same applies to life, I think.
"He began to spend every waking minute in front of a television, watching infomercials and game shows, in hopes of identifying some kind of opportunity to get rich quick."
This is hard to discuss with precision because there is a lot of subjective judgment involved. Cutting lines is not against the law, so should you do it to avoid wasting time waiting? Occasionally a rightmost lane is in practice used mostly for right turns, but marked as both straight and turn. Majority of people seem to understand it's a jerk move to block that lane for the turning traffic, so it's usually empty, but every now and then some greedy SOB takes it to overtake the herd. Personally I find this kind of thing despicable and do what I can to prevent it.
I'm sure there is some evolutionary biology connection to fairness and why we behave/feel this way.
Every society that I can think of that had that kind of homogeneity did it by marginalizing, often violently, the crap out of anyone who stepped out of line. No thank you.
I suggest you read into the history of common law as it pertains to the history of legal practice in the UK and many of its former colonies. It is still strong today in both the US and the UK, though I am not familiar with other commonwealth nations.
In a common law legal system, laws are discovered through trial rather than ordained by legislation. Precedent is built through case law.
This is a system that is all about the "spirit" of the law.
Rather, I'd say the spirit of some of the laws and rules.
Most laws and rules are worthy, in that if everyone respects them, everyone is better off. They are positive sum. Those need to be followed.
But arbitrary, explicitly defined games might be gamed at the same time.
IMHO, there are 2 necessary criterion on whether or not a game should be played in a certain manner:
1. Is it fun? 2. Will people continue to play with me if play this way?
The first is obvious, don't do things that aren't fun. The second has to do with exhausting the people who might want to play with you - after all, if no one plays with you it's unlikely you'll be able to keep playing the game.
I don't imagine these criterion are complete, however. A dog might want to "play" by chasing a cat, and the cat might continue to "play" if it fears for its life. This is not a thing I allow. There needs to be some criterion for consent, or for the game being "good" for all parties involved.
In the case of card games, I've been very turned off of them before because of broken strategies. I'm not in principle against discovering new strategies that happen to be much stronger than intended ones, but if the game that comes out of that discovery is no longer fun, then I have no incentive to learn how to play the game.
A star NFL quarterback with a $100 million contract may well still play the game even if it's unfun and if people don't want to play with them.
More generally, competitive games quite often degenerate into a "whatever is within the rules" mindset, and that's perfectly fine.
Since this is top of mind right now, and since perhaps someone out there may have not read it yet, it's worth linking to David Sirlin's "Playing To Win" - http://www.sirlin.net/ptw - the book is about competitive fighting arcade games like Street Fighter but it covers many other games and the philosophy is enthralling.
What is "dishonest"? It's a word. That's all; just a word. The meaning it has is based solely on the context in which you use it. There is not an ontological reality for the meanings of words. It means what you want it to mean.
We could argue what is and what is not dishonest. We could go back to the etymology of the word. We could see how it came to be. We could see how most people have used it. We could argue what meaning would be least surprising for most people. But in the end, when you utter the word "dishonest", you have a meaning in mind and, for you, the word has that meaning.
In fact, this is just the same as every other game you play. It's just a loophole. It's an advantage you can hold over others. You spoke. It is your meaning. I can misinterpret what you said, but it is forever my fault for not understanding your meaning. I can argue until the cows come home that I don't think it should mean what you want it to mean, but it's useless because the sentence you spoke is meaningless unless it has the meaning you intended it to have.
Most of your post is a tautology - I do not think it is "wrong" because I do not define "wrong" as being this. Discussion is not necessary.
> but I'm sure some would disagree
And this is where life gets interesting. "Some would disagree". Isn't that how games are supposed to be played? With others? Isn't the goal of a game to enhance everyone's well being, not just one "winner". Aren't the rules there to coax the maximum possible extraction of fun for all involved? Wouldn't be an extreme debasement of this concept if we abused the intent of the rules simply because we could?
You can do what you want, but don't be surprised if I have more fun than you even if I don't "win" ;-)
Obviously there is a possible range of meaning for a word for a culture at any point in time, but there is in the end a limit to what the word dishonest can mean in our present context. This is why I do not expect to get served a cheddar and jalapeno omelet when I walk into a funeral home and order a dishonest.
2. Do you honestly not know of anyone who has gotten rich by good, hard, honest work?
EDIT: Let me rephrase question 2: Do you honestly feel that most "rich" people got that way by being dishonest or gaming the system?
But there are people all over the United States who have started their own businesses doing very basic things like plumbing, electrical, HVAC, or software consulting who have made enough money to retire any time they want, travel, own a house and a lake house, etc.
I consider that rich and I don't consider it lucky or dishonest in most cases.
If you think rich is $50 million or more then yes you start getting into some very rare air. And those people probably have benefited from several things going their way that were not entirely in their control.
But "rich" indicates a lot more money and a lifestyle above those.
My father came from a family that couldn't afford to put any of their children through college. They wore hand-me-down clothes and barely got by.
Through his own hard work, he learned engineering and management and had a family with none of the problems above. That's definitely 'success' in my definition, but I wouldn't call us "rich".
My wife and I are both software devs, and we make good money. But I still wouldn't call us "rich". Definitely successful, though.
I guess one could argue that there was luck along the way, but not "insane luck" because I can't point it out. There were no lotteries or inheritances involved.
My point is that unless those business owners managed to have multi-million-dollar bank accounts, I don't think they were rich, just successful. I think the number of people who do manage that, without being blatantly dishonest, is pretty small. Not non-existent, just pretty small.
People have become so intensely focused on becoming rich that the mechanisms for getting money have become completely divorced from value creation behaviors which money was supposed to encourage. Detaching money from the gold standard was the straw that broke the camel's back IMO; it systemized deception.
If the financial system is deceptive at its foundation, all the ventures which succeed within it are going to be of a deceptive nature as well.
Value creation is on its death bed. In our complex, unfair and unequal system, most winners are tricksters, cheaters or just born into it (in which case their parents were probably cheaters/tricksters).
I think it's only getting worse over time.
Technically he did get one Whammy.