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I work for a Fortune 150 company as a programmer. I've had lots of people ask me why I don't move to California and work for a startup. The main reason is because I'm risk adverse and I really don't like the Bay Area (I spent many years living in San Ramon, Alameda, Newark, etc. in my youth and have no desire to ever return). Now I have a new reason to be grateful I work for a Fortune 150 company. I've been able to work from home no problem. Nobody has been laid off. The company has already announced that they are going to go ahead and pay 100% of our year end bonus regardless of what happens in the 4th quarter (the current quarter). Frankly the quarantine has been very very non-stressful for me and my family so far. I don't think that would be the case if I had been working for a startup.

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>I spent many years living in San Ramon, Alameda, Newark, etc. in my youth and have no desire to ever return

I understand that this is not center to the point you're making but I am curious! What makes you hate the Bay area? I lived there for ~4 years and recently moved to Pittsburgh. I can't wait to move back. In fact, the mere mention of these places evokes a strong sense of homesickness in me for some reason.

Not OP. I've only visited the Bay Area a few times. Human filth, needles, and just so many people packed into the space. I can't imagine raising a family in that situation. Contrast that with where I am now: I have a very large house on 10+ acres of land on the edge of a lake. Each of my kids has their own room and there are lots of rooms and corners to "get away from each other". We have room for food storage, a home gym, and are not dependent on the city for water or gas (though we do have to fill our propane tank a couple times a year). If I walk to the edges of my property, I can see a couple other houses. We have bon fires, ride ATVs, go fishing, shoot guns and bows in the back yard. We have full on seasons (granted that winter is the largest, but we like cold and snow). Not to even begin talking about the political differences.

The few things I liked about the Bay Area: lots of economic opportunity (esp. as a software dev), nearby greenery, and lots of food options. Oh, and the ability to find others who would like to play board games. I can't find anyone to play board games with out in the middle of nowhere (my family is not interested in any).

The "Bay Area" is a big place. I live a similar lifestyle and I'm 45m from downtown Oakland. You could do closer if you're willing to spend more or have neighbors.

San Francisco is not the whole bay area, but it is pretty gross.

Live in San Francisco for 3 years now. Haven't seen a single needle yet or "human filth". AMA.

How? I was in the city for a week and saw more needles on the street than the slums of China.

Even the townsfolk would complain about some mental hospital closing down forcing mentally ill people to live on the streets and you could see them everywhere.

That said, I didn't have a guide, I'd just walk with friends for an hour or two aimlessly starting from the pier. On the other hand, this is how I'm used to do it and I've been to 20+ countries.

All cities have bad parts. San Francisco is somewhat unique amongst places that I've visited, in that most of the tourist traps are either in or are immediately next to the absolute worst parts of town.

Human suffering (homelessness, needles and mental issues) is not something I'd call bad parts. Whatever that was goes beyond that.

I don't even want to know how it would affect a person to see that every day and think it's normal.

Dang, you must live in an awfully rich neighborhood.

Nope. I just don’t live in the tenderloin. Unfortunately that’s where all the hotels are. So I’m not surprised that visitors (and twitterati) get a certain sense.

Sounds like you were in the city (SF). The suburbs are much better!

Never been to Pittsburgh, but what do you miss, other than the weather? I lived there for 3 years (Mountain View, SoMa, Inner Richmond), and outside of work it's basically a giant cluster of generic burbs and gridlock, with a filthy medium-quality city in the middle, priced 3-4 times the amount of an average burby gridlock (e.g. San Antonio) or a medium-quality city (e.g. Denver then). There's awesome nature but it's 3-5 hours away, driving thru gridlock, whereas Seattle, Portland, Denver, SLC, etc have it next door.

Interestingly, in addition to the weather, I do miss nature. I think nature is always next door depending on where you are in the Bay area. For example, you can be in Foster City at 5 pm, get on 92W and reach crystal springs water reservoir on Canãda road by 5:10 (you already feel like you're far away from the city); 15 more minutes and you could be on Skyline (this was also one of my favorite "amaze the tourist" route whenever I was playing the tour guide for people visiting). There's plenty of nature around Pittsburgh, but I none of the hikes that are close to the city give you the feeling of being really deep in the woods. I also miss the Redwoods, the coast, and the seafood.

I've collected some pictures from my hikes in the Bay area here: https://madaan.github.io/hiking

I used to bike up to Skyline on Old La Honda road. I didn't consider it to be really impressive nature... at least not compared to the above mentioned cities. IMHO there are too many people and built-up land there (a general problem in the Bay Area), and whatever hikes/etc. are available are flat and rather mediocre. Marin is not bad but also crowded, flat and gets old fast. Places like Skyline, Saint Helena, Mount Diablo, Half Moon Bay, Pinnacles etc. are really only good for 1-2 visits and then to impress visitors :)

Sierras are amazing, but far away (both Rockies in Denver and Cascades in PNW are much closer and the traffic is not so bad), and the ocean is very cold, you have to be really psyched to surf or do anything like that in the Bay Area.

I mean sure it's better than most places East of the continental divide, but not particularly great. Especially with all the people :)

I hear you, but to me it was a good mix of nature vs. city. I actually lived in Woodside (off of 280 so closer to the woods area, not to RWC) and it was amazing.

On the hikes, I'd recommend Windy hill and Russian ridge if you haven't tried them. The former especially really takes you deep into the woods.

> Canãda road

Cañada Road

Thanks!

It all depends what you want in life. Pittsburgh you can afford a beautiful home and support a family on $100k. That's studio apartment survival money in the bay. The portion of us who will ever make it to the big leagues and land that $300k FAANG job that allows you to buy a home and raise a family in the bay is infinitesimal. But if you just want to live that single lifestyle, enjoy the big city, and play the startup lotto, then go for it.

> big leagues and land that $300k FAANG job that allows you to buy a home and raise a family in the bay is infinitesimal.

$300k/yr is nowhere near big leagues to buy a home and raise a family in the Bay area, just fyi. It's more like a comfortable single income where you aren't worried about paying rent or going out to dinner.

You try and raise a family on a mere $300k in SF/SV, you're one layoff or recession away from being completely screwed.

You can absolutely raise a family in the SFBA on less than $300k of household income. (Source: me). You think everyone with kids in this region of 3.6m people is pulling down that kind of money?

There’s plenty of 3BR houses in the east bay for less than a million, which puts your mortgage+property taxes at around $60k, which is totally doable at even half the salary you’re talking about.

> which is totally doable at even half the salary you’re talking about.

Half that salary? That's $150k, or after taxes, about ~$8k/mo. or $3k/mo for everything else after your alloted $5k/mo. Yes, people can survive on a lot less, but why in the world would you want to live in the Bay area just to eek by on such a paltry net outcome without nearly enough to set aside for the rainy day that's coming soon.

And more importantly, that I think the vast majority of SF/SV kids seem to forget is, what happens when your cushy job disappears? How long can you survive dropping $5k/mo for a house that you could be paying $700/mo in a small town.

Mortgage interest and property tax are tax-deductible, so if you're subtracting from after-tax income, it's more like $3-4k/month.

Because of the SALT cap in the 2017 tax bill, property tax is effectively no longer deductible.

The MID is also worth much less because of the higher standard deduction and the SALT cap.

The trick is to also marry another engineer making that much :)

The majority of housing stock listed for sale in SV is being pulled off the market in a panic. I'm not sure what exactly it means, but if I had to guess, I think it's due to a huge reduction in demand.

No one is buying, so sellers don't want their homes to be listed as unsold for a lengthy period of time. Eventually, people will need to sell, and then we'll see a race to the new bottom for the market, which might still be incredibly unaffordable for most.

$300k will take you further then, but the issue will be whether companies will keep paying engineers that much when housing prices no longer warrant it.

Well it might be enough in 6 months!

For sure. I'd just hate to be someone who thought signing a 30-yr note on a modest $1.5M 3-bed/2-ba home was a sustainable decision, and is now faced with the almost certain deep recession we're heading into.

I agree. I moved here for Grad school so I'm not making six figures anymore but it's still pretty cheap!

It’s not the format of the business or the size or the location. It’s the business model itself that defines the resiliency. Bottom line.

I'm a programmer at a Fortune 500 company, and it's a similar situation. I feel very lucky. I do wish I had as much knowledge of our day to day financial situation as all of the startup guys on here though, just to know where things are headed.

it's averse not adverse

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