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Comment by mortenjorck | Hacker News Reader

"Jony Ive was the hero long enough to become the villain" may be an overdone take at this point, but this just continues to prove it true. Ive led Apple's design org through a renaissance that lasted two decades, but it ultimately collapsed in a string of vanity projects that put a serious dent in Apple's design credibility.

Maybe it was not having Jobs as a counterbalancing force that wasn't afraid to say "no;" maybe it was something else. But it's clear Apple is both immeasurably better for having had Ive from the 90s to the early 2010s, and is now better for his having given up the reins.

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It's the George Lucas Effect

What vanity projects?

The $10,000 Gold first generation Apple Watch, the trash can Mac Pro, the 12” MacBook, and the dumpster fire last generation keyboards.

I disagree on the 12" MacBook. My wife has one and I think it's a fantastic product. With only 0.2 lbs separating the Air and Pro right now, I don't think both lines really need to exist. If they had kept iterating on the ultra-light MacBook it would be such a great product to recommend to parents, etc.

I think it's a big shame they're not making the 12" anymore. It's a perfect computer for lounging around on the sofa or on the go. The new Air actually feels a lot more heavy and cumbersome compared to it.

I just made the switch recently; the larger volume of the new 13" and the increased mass really creates a discernible different in the moment of inertia. Subtle difference that makes me miss the 12".

yep, the first iterations of the macbook 12 were pretty awful but the last generation is actually quite a competent computer

4k display @ 60hz works fine through usb-c

up to 16GB ram

up to dual core i7

no fan

keyboard is improved over the first generation

i can run clion, xcode, docker, quiet a few safari tabs, terminals and other apps at the same time... the only thing is large compiled of course take a long time, but for lighter workloads, for people that are on the go a lot (like me ^^) it’s quite good imo

I liked the 12 inch MB models. Not a lot of good choices in the ultraportables category and 12 is where it's at for me.

I think these are references to Apple's change in software design once Jony Ive became in charge of human interface design in late 2012 as well as the 2013 Mac Pro and the 2016 MacBook Pro. From a software standpoint, I've noticed a change in the quality and feel of Apple products since OS X Yosemite, and it hasn't been for the better. I found (and still find) Photos.app to be a downgrade from iPhoto, and I'm also finding less fit-and-finish in Apple's software overall, though it still remains more polished to me than Windows 10 or Linux desktops. It's a far cry from the days where Apple was obsessed with UI design, both in terms of form and faction, from the days of the early Macintosh all the way through the Snow Leopard era.

The keyboard fiasco regarding the 2016 MacBook Pro is well-known. Regarding the 2013 Mac Pro, I'm actually typing this on a 2013 Mac Pro; it's not a bad computer at all by any means, but Apple severely miscalculated this machine's capability of getting regular refreshes due to thermal issues that they admitted to in 2017. Had it been a one-off model similar to the 20th Anniversary Macintosh, then its reputation would have been better. But this miscalculation, as well as Apple's unwillingness to correct course until their announcement in 2017, meant that the Mac Pro went for six years without upgrades, an eternity in the computer industry.

All of these issues, combined with other problems that may or may not have anything to do with Jony Ive (e.g., the lack of upgrades in the Mac Mini, the lack of user-serviceability in many Mac models, the price gouging for RAM and storage upgrades at purchase time) have eroded the reputation of the Mac brand and has caused some Mac users to switch to either Hackintoshes, Windows, or Linux.

With that being said, I've been more impressed with Apple's Mac upgrades lately. While I'm still bummed that Apple didn't make a $2,999 or $3,499 entry-level 2019 Mac Pro, the $5,999 Mac Pro appears to be a solid Mac desktop, and I'm glad that Apple listened to its customers in the creative professional market who need machines like that to do their work. I'm also glad that Apple has corrected course regarding its laptop keyboards, and the 2020 MacBook Air looks like a compelling buy. I might end up buying one later this year to replace my aging 2013 MacBook Air.

Removing useful ports to shave off a tenth of a millimeter.

I think there are three: the golden watch, the coffee table book and the Apple Park. Although the park seems to have worked out really well in the end.

Yes, now that people have stopped smashing their faces into the glass walls. There were multiple 911 calls for head trauma in the first few weeks of moving into the office.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Apple-was-warne...

Soldering SSD to MacBook Pro motherboard. Eliminating the ability to remove it when logic board dies and retrieve data with a Simple USB adapter.

I don't think that's vanity, I think they made a conscious tradeoff in service of thinner computers. It's a good tradeoff in my opinion: the thinness of the computer has more of an impact on my average day to day usage than being able to remove a faulty logic board.

Until your logic board fails (mine has failed and been replaced 3 times on a 2016 MBP). How much space did it save to remove the most simple data recovery option that ever existed?

I had a 2016 MBP that had everything replaced at least once except the bottom case (with the serial number on it, lol). That thing then failed entirely again about 2 months after Apple Care ended. Good news: Apple elected to replace the machine for free, as I had so much trouble with it. Bad news: he machine will ship directly from the factory in China, when it’s been built, to the Apple store, where I can pick it up when they’re open again... So, thanks to Apple and SARS-CoV-2 I have had no laptop for more than 5 weeks. :-/

Wow sorry to hear that. I've had the same experience with my 15" MBP. Apple replaced everything apart from bottom case. The bottom case has no components. Despite that, the laptop died again (and several times since).

I live in Bali (Indonesia), there is no Apple store in Indonesia. The only domestic option is an authorized service center. A hardware replacement such as logic board or screen is a 5-6 week wait time. My laptop is my primary work tool. 5-6 weeks without income? So instead I've opted to fly to a city with an Apple Store and Genius Bar. So far I have flown internationally 12 times to get this laptop repaired. I'm compiling a list of all the hardware faults, days out of service and hours on calls to Apple and hardware faults and will take this to the consumer court in Australia which is quite effective usually. And, now the laptop has died again, it can't find the SSD. Trying to install OSX to an external USB also fails, implying another logic board fault.

I write this from a 2010 Mac Mini connected to a 2007 30" Apple Cinema Display, both work perfectly, not a single failure ever.

Not removed.

https://9to5mac.com/2016/11/24/apple-special-cdm-tool-macboo...

Well, even if you could, I think Full Disk Encryption is on the T2 chip now. No way of reading the drive even if you remove it.

That's a different issue than the lack of expandability.

Is that Ive or Cook though

Probably was due to their obsession with making things as thin as possible (Ive). Internal connectors take up more space than direct soldering. But, it’s also probably easier to manufacture (Cook), because you don’t have to have a person manually plug in a cable/ribbon. But on the balance, I’d guess that the decision to remove internal ports was all about thinness.

Wasn't Apple Park a passion project of Steve Jobs as much as Ive?

The part where Ive stopped working on Apple products for years so the Park could have cooler door handles rubbed some people the wrong way.

The replies may be a long list of hardware snafus, however Apples largest hurdle to complete dominance is their lack of cloud services, their subpar cloud services (compared to Google and Microsoft), their refusal to allow users to set competing services as default (change is in the air?), their confusing and cumbersome iterations of the same concept (Photos especially), and the duality of iOS/MacOS vs Windows 10. They are making the same mistake Microsoft made for too long, where Microsoft wanted all Microsoft software to drive sales of Windows licenses.

- Apple has few top tier "services." Music is one, the app store is another they do offer. Maps has somewhat caught up to be good enough, but if I were a google maps user I wouldnt choose to switch. Photos and Device Backup are a mess.

- Apple should take being a software services company more seriously. If buying Adobe is out of the question, they need some kind of paid revenue stream such as Adobe Creative Cloud or Office 365, something that non-Apple users will buy and use. One of the smartest thing Apple ever did was release the iPad and make it work with Windows. Apple needs that gateway drug that draws non apple users back in without forcing a hardware purchase.

- I can use Google Photos on Windows, OneDrive on Android. Apple forcing an all or nothing into their ecosystem incentivizes me to choose nothing. AppleTV on Samsung tvs was a smart play, make more of them.

Removing ports from MBPs for one.

I have a non-touchbar MBP with just two USB-C ports and nothing else. Two, on the same side, and one is always used for charging. So one free port on a pro laptop. I still can’t understand how they ever thought it was acceptable. Why bother moving to USB-C if you’re going to cripple their usefulness?

> I still can’t understand how they ever thought it was acceptable.

> I have a non-touchbar MBP.

You or your employer bought it. This leads them to believe it was acceptable.

[edit: this comment was pedantic and unhelpful. I do understand what the parent meant. See another comment down thread.]

Yes, technically, but I was replacing a (superior) older MBP that got water damage and that was what they had available. I was abroad, needed a replacement for some contract work and didn't have time to dick around setting up a new Linux environment.

These days it's purely a question of whether the convenience of the Apple walled garden is sufficient to offset their hardware choices.

I don't think this is a nuanced enough way to think about it. Most of the reason I still use my macbook and basically the only reason I'd consider buying a new one when the time comes is "soft lock in". I'm not literally stuck, but I'd have to carefully consider how to do literally everything differently, and learn whole different workflows and software packages and keyboard shortcuts. I'd have to consider how various other hardware would or would not work with it. Etc. Orrrr... I could get a macbook that has a lot of annoying shit about it and just deal with it.

And sure, you could say that is the definition of "acceptable"--after all, on the balance, I "prefer" to just deal with it. But I'm saying that there's a qualitative difference (that you'll see in the long term prospects of the company if they don't get their shit together) between deciding something is the best option vs feeling stuck with something.

Yeah, I hear you. Some products get the value proposition really great (MBP 15" and MBA 13" both circa 2015), and some you can just settle for. I totally understand how different those buying experiences feel.

The new MBA seems to be well received by reviewers.

You got the low end "pro" version. The 4-port version was on offer.

What do you need the extra ports for? Monitors have USB hubs.

That's been a trend across all laptops for awhile now. You're lucky to get a mini display port or mini hdmi these days.

$1k display stand

$400 casters without locks

camera-bump sticking out of iPhone that makes it rock on a flat surface

- Touchbar

- Keyboard

- Shaving off more and more millimetres off notebooks when no one was asking for at the expense of functionality

- The disaster that is Apple's current approach to software design

- Mice that have to be charged from the bottom

- Apple pencil that can only be charged by sticking it into iPad's lightning port

- Moving audio jack the the right on the laptops when 99% of world's headphones have cables coming out of the left ear

Just off the top of my head, things I've been annoyed in the past year.

> 99% of world's headphones have cables coming out of the left ear

Is this number intended as a factual statement or hyperbole? I’ve only ever used headphones with cables going to both ears, to neither ear, or ones where you can plug it in on either side.

I've had 4 or 5 headphones, and only the really cheap computer lab ones had the wire split in front. The rest all have the wire going to the left ear, then a wire overtop to right ear.

I've never seen one which you can plug it in on either side. I'm in Canada if that helps.

Is the audio jack an apple thing? I'm on a four year old Dell and it's on the right.

In MacBooks it used to always be on the left. And then they switched to the right when they introduced USB-C models.

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