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Comment by dang | Hacker News Reader

You're right - it applies fully to me, and I'm aware of how hard that rule can be to follow, so correction is welcome.

As I read the GP comment, it accuses the OP not just of a straw man, but implies being an asshole (i.e. thinking that others are peasants who shouldn't expect to be paid). That's clearly not a fair reading of bluedino's post. Each move in such a direction is a step towards degraded discussion; hence the moderation reply.

Obviously these are matters of interpretation, though. People often read the same things differently.

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demand a salary close to what they think they should be getting, according to their advisers or statistics or whatever.

The OP's comment implies that the job applicants are entitled for making salary demands based on statistics. There is nothing entitled about asking for market rates.

The comment responding to it points out the problem with this thinking in a lighthearted way. To me it was the perfect response. I understand you may disagree, but it was in no way unreasonable.

My comment on the other hand could have come across better. I implied you were not following the rules you set which I don't think is fair. I may disagree with your decision, but I could have done it in a more respectful way.

I don't believe I was straw-manning the guy (never my intent), and I did very much believe his comment made him come across as - to use your word - an asshole. Rereading the portion I quoted, I find his sentiment to be just completely horrible. Zooming out to the rest of his comments here for context, the whole thing is just a sad reflection of what faces the graduate of a typical computer science program when entering the profession and interviewing with a sadly typical... well... you know.

What entry into the profession should be like for a new CS graduate, and how we fall short compared to the other professions, feels like a topic for a much longer comment. Although perhaps it's a little bit like the book "The No Asshole Rule," where one might read the title and kind of get the point, and just skip it. Or possibly one might read the title and feel vaguely threatened, and just skip it.

OTOH, I really do appreciate you pointing out that I might not have been elevating the discussion with attempted humor, and I appreciate your work in general.

You'd do better to post a comment giving your own perspective rather than flaming someone else for theirs, which you may not have evaluated accurately. (I think you misread the GP, and speaking generally, we're more likely to misread other people on topics we feel strongly about.) Since it sounds like you have experience with the topic, sharing your experience and stating the conclusions it's led you to would be a substantive contribution.

In addition, sharing experience is at lower risk of misunderstanding and less likely to descend into flamewar. There's no contradiction between experiences. A hiring manager in (let's say) one state has their experience, and a new college grad in (let's say) another state has theirs. Both are real because they happened. If we report from that level, we can't contradict each other.

It's when we turn our experience into abstractions (e.g. the abstraction "new CS grads") that trouble arises. Abstraction A appears to contradict abstraction B. Both are lossy conceptualizations of a more complicated reality, and it's the lossiness that makes it seem like we're at odds with each other.

> A hiring manager in (let's say) one state has their experience, and a new college grad in (let's say) another state has theirs.

That's interesting, and a fair point. The differences I'm admittedly fixated on are the differences between software development as a profession versus engineering, medicine, or law, for example - or even the creative arts or science, not just the licensed professions! And I really do think it's a bit much to unpack adequately in the comments here, though I have seen a few good ones that touch on some things I think are important.

> the abstraction "new CS grads"

No abstraction intended, you can read that as "members of the set of students who recently graduated from CS programs in the United States and will now look for jobs or continue further in academia" if you like.

I would encourage them, if any were nutty enough to ask me for advice, to be enthusiastic about their future contribution to what is (well... should be) an amazing field, to be proud of their education, and to negotiate as well as possible with their first employer out of college, since that will help set the trajectory of their future career.

And to avoid people who misunderstand them by saying things like:

They come with a chip on their shoulder, flaunt their degree, and demand a salary close to what they think they should be getting, according to their advisers or statistics or whatever.

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