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Comment by tw04 | Hacker News Reader

>But if there were ever a time for us not to be partisan and tribal, it's now.

You say that like both parties are trying to deny testing and are refusing to provide the social safety net for workers to stay home when they're sick. This is very much not a "both sides" discussion. This is: the GOP needs to stop trying to pretend like nothing is wrong and actually DO SOMETHING to prevent this from becoming an even bigger disaster.

Ahh, the old cowardly downvote without comment because you don't like the reality of the situation that there is one party that's very much to blame.

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/487258-senate-republican...

View on HN

Also:

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/486559-trump-fak...

https://theweek.com/speedreads/901405/seattle-lab-uncovered-...

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/03/anthony-fauci-donald...

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/487014-trump-officials-cu...

Yes, the administration bears a huge amount of responsibility for sandbagging and obstructing the initial response, mis-informing the public, ignoring their own subject experts, etc.

Fresh Air did a great long-form report today summarizing the ways the administration has obstructed and worsened the crisis. No transcript yet but it's worth a listen.

https://www.npr.org/2020/03/12/814881355/white-house-knew-co...

(<3 Terry Gross, she's a wonderful interviewer who is fantastic at asking insightful and probing questions while being incredibly kind and gentle. Probably the single most informative show on the air, for whatever topic she covers.)

For what it's worth, the transcript is now live. Direct link:

https://www.npr.org/transcripts/814881355

Slight tangent, but the excessive focus on tests is misguided. The tests give us more data but make little difference unless they are used to rapidly trace outbreaks and quarantine entire areas, which just has not happened. And with something this viral, its only a matter of time before it spreads everywhere.

The focus needs to be on slowing the spread and treatment.

The treatment is about supporting the body while it fights the virus, and highly dependent on how & where the virus manifests. Some need oxygen therapy, some need antivirals, some even need lung transplants. In cases where the virus affects other organs, totally different treatment applies. The resource constraint there is general medical capacity - doctors, beds, ICUs, oxygen support, and probably a hundred other things.

>Slight tangent, but the excessive focus on tests is misguided.

The issue with our lack of testing is that we have no idea what we're dealing with, which is a big part of why the market's freaking out. If we had been ramping up testing months ago, when it was already a massive disruption in China and should have been clear that it was only a matter of time before it got to the US, then we would have a lot more information now.

This is why we need competent administrators running things like the CDC, the DoE, Homeland Security etc..., not political hacks.

> This is why we need competent administrators running things

The GOP has a conflict of interest here. They don't want to give evidence that government can work. Their goal is to break government and then go "see, government doesn't work!" It's a splendid position to take, because anything that comes up you simply shrug and wipe your hands clean. You're not responsible for anything.

While we all sit and ponder whether we're all going to die and if the economy will disappear overnight, let's all just remember the travesty that is Puerto Rico. If that's not enough, then kids in concentration camps. Oh? People care now because it impacts their little world?

"No time for politics" says the people actively breaking the world.

I saw the writing on the wall in January. We didn't need tests, all we had to do was look at the urgency & scale of China's response and the R0 of the virus. It is literally exponential growth, and even a few people spreading the virus with a 2 week delay in symptoms all but guarantees the majority of the world is going to get it. There is no doubt about what we're dealing with, hasn't been any for 2 months.

We needed information 2 months ago, we needed early action like quarantines, travel bans a month ago. Testing is the response to an old problem at this point.

Large democratic, decentralized institutions are uniquely bad at the kind of fast response needed here and the government continues to act 1 months behind, so I have little faith that much will change. Most of the world will get it, but medical systems are mobilizing and hopefully most people will make it out ok.

>Slight tangent, but the excessive focus on tests is misguided.

During H1N1 in 2009, within 30 days we tested 1 million people. This led to a vaccine developed within 6 months. Testing is core to understand spread.

Whatever we -have- got, we use to identify and isolate, to flatten the curve. Test priority for healthcare workers.

"Containment is making sure all the cases are identified, controlled, and isolated. It’s what Singapore, Hong Kong, Japan or Taiwan are doing so well: They very quickly limit people coming in, identify the sick, immediately isolate them, use heavy protective gear to protect their health workers, track all their contacts, quarantine them…"

https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-peop...

Funny how many people think "they were too slow with testing" - do any of these commentators have any idea how long it takes to develop a reliable, sensitive and hopefully specific test for a virus that probably didn't exist in its current form until around 3 months ago. Oh, and then also to be able to make a production line capable of producing millions of them while maintaining quality - why not criticize them for not yet developing an effective antiviral treatment and vaccine for the condition too?

This is not a complicated test to make or run. Most microbiology grad students could make it and every university lab could run them.

Lack of testing does not appear to have been a technology or supply chain problem, possible supply chain probs in future...

The US had tested 23 out of every million people as of 11th March, while South Korea had done 3692/million as of 8th March.

Funny how many people think "they were too slow with testing"

They were.

do any of these commentators have any idea how long it takes to develop a reliable, sensitive and hopefully specific test

The CDC forbade King County from using their own home grown test.

that probably didn't exist in its current form until around 3 months ago.

The US CDC also declined to use the WHO test (and presumably the Chinese and Korean ones as well)... even as a temporary measure.

why not criticize them for not yet developing an effective antiviral treatment and vaccine for the condition too?

Because the tests were widely available, widely distributed, and non-CDC labs have already developed tests. The same is not true with a vaccine. IIRC antivirals are being tested in Seattle.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/10/us/coronavirus-testing-de...

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/06/coronavirus-testing...

The WHO already had the test.

Which test? What kind of distribution did that test have? What kind of distribution capacity did that test have? What kind of false positive rate?

Classic "the [solution] that exists isn't good enough, therefore we can't use it at all!"

A pandemic is not the time to be picky - if anything, a high false positive rate helps. Would you rather 10 people quarantined, of whom only 2 are sick, or all 10 released into the wild because no test kit (of any sort) was available?

Even without a test you could quarantine people who get off flights. We've been doing it for years with pets traveling from specific countries.

To be fair, a test with high false-negative rate would be problematic. 10 people released into the wild, who think they don't have it, is worse than 10 people released into the wild who are uncertain about their status.

Not saying that's what happened here (perfect is the enemy of the good!), just that it could be worse. It could always be worse.

I would rather anyone with symptoms and ability to self quarantine instead of burdening the economy and healthcare system.

I think what gdubs was trying to get across is that sure, there are problems, people to blame, etc. but now is not the time. We have to get our act together and handle the situation. We can't have petty fighting betweeen parties.

Now is the time to unite and act. We can fight, argue and point fingers once this is all behind us.

Now is the time for leadership. If leadership is lacking, we don't star singing Kumbaya and offering platitudes about "unity" in the face of malpractice, we loudly and firmly demand better leadership.

You are right. Unfortunately we need good strong leadership focused on protecting not just numbers on a candlestick chart but actual real people. Our current president has proven completely incapable of that and should immediately step aside. I am no fan of Pence but he at least likely capable of listening to experts and following their recommendations. The markets reaction to last night Oval office speech is reason enough to prove the nation has lost confidence in its current occupant.

i don’t usually post on political topics but... i’m not so sure about pence... [0]

if we are lucky, hopefully he’s learned from that but i’m not holding my breath

[0] https://www.newsweek.com/mike-pences-pray-it-plan-combat-ind...

They're literally blocking COVID emergency budget bills getting passed in the Senate

This is time to fall in line or be thrown out of your job.

At least one bill is being blocked because it doesn't have language prohibiting the money to be used for abortion. The money would be used to fight Covid-19 pandemic, but for some reason, it's critical that the money in no way go to abortion.

https://www.salon.com/2020/03/12/gop-delays-coronavirus-bill...

Why don't Republicans need to fall in line when Democrats pass much needed relief for coronavirus?

That's who he is talking about, the republicans are blocking it.

You act like we aren't capable of doing two things at once.

Sorry, I am perfectly capable of acting while still pointing my finger at the people who are actively trying to make this worse.

Maybe you can afford to play kum-bay-yah but perhaps it's not your life or the lives of your loved ones which have been doomed by this ineptitude. Civility is poison to irrational discourse.

The fighting between the parties hasn't been petty for years now. It's frequently a disagreement on basic factual information. Solving problems is something that can be done when everyone understands and agrees on what the problem actually is.

I don't expect to be able to craft useful public health policy in discussion with an antivaxxer or space exploration policy with a flat earther – the idea of "unite and act" is be absurd when dealing with people who lack the ability to admit they can be wrong/consider multiple perspectives/think critically. And yet that's basically where we stand today politically.

> Fact-checkers and scientists have scrambled to correct the misinformation coming out of the White House. (No, the virus has not been “contained” in America; no, testing is not available to anybody who wants it; no, people shouldn’t go to work if they’re sick.) But Trump’s message seems to have resonated with his base: A Quinnipiac University poll released this week found that just 35 percent of Republicans are concerned about the virus, compared with 68 percent of Democrats. [1]

If the other side doesn't even agree with you this is a problem that needs serious attention to be solved, how are we going to get our act together?

[1] https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/03/trump-c...

> I think what gdubs was trying to get across is that sure, there are problems, people to blame, etc. but now is not the time.

Now is absolutely the time, because:

> We have to get our act together and handle the situation.

And identifying the problems in the approach to date is an essential element of course correction.

> Now is the time to unite and act.

No, now is the time to identify the problems in our actions to date and course correct to appropriate actions. “Unite and act” is pointless or counterproductive without that.

You can't just conjure the necessary tests up from nothing. Japan has also had problems with testing. No one is trying to "deny testing". It is a work in progress and is indeed ramping up.

The WHO actually had tests that worked. CDC refused those and chose to independently redevelop their own. Then those didn't work, they still kept trying, while also blocking states from using their own tests that also worked.

https://www.propublica.org/article/cdc-coronavirus-covid-19-...

The states with "local outbreaks" (NY, CA, WA) are the ones that told the CDC to get bent and did it anyway. It's everywhere, the states with low case numbers just aren't testing for it.

https://theweek.com/speedreads/901405/seattle-lab-uncovered-...

>The states with "local outbreaks" (NY, CA, WA) are the ones that told the CDC to get bent and did it anyway. It's everywhere, the states with low case numbers just aren't testing for it.

This is what I can't get people around me to understand.

No cases near me simply means no one has been tested for it at this point.

The FDA had a ban on tests outside of the CDC's tiny supply for a long time. That's whats being referred to by "denying testing." Not a political issue so much as a typical bureaucratic slowdown with very real consequences.

The comment I replied to was saying that the lack of testing was indeed a political issue with one side at fault.

It is insofar as the FDA and CDC are controlled by the president and both agencies could make emergency exceptions.

On a phone call the day after the C.D.C. and F.D.A. had told Dr. Chu to stop, officials relented, but only partially, the researchers recalled. They would allow the study’s laboratories to test cases and report the results only in future samples. They would need to use a new consent form that explicitly mentioned that results of the coronavirus tests might be shared with the local health department.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/10/us/coronavirus-testing-de...

Not a political issue? The FDA having the power to ban things known to be a good idea sounds exactly like a political issue. A pretty serious one - excessive government regulation magnifying the effect of a crisis.

Testing is, indeed, ramping up: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/testing-in-us.html

The problem is it's ramping up to where it should've been weeks (months?) ago. We're way behind.

If the system is reliant on the legislative branch to respond to a crisis then there is no doubt that it will fail. Large voting bodies are no good at all in times of crisis.

I guess OP meant that this ignorance is systematic and long term. Current pandemic just very clearly shows how ridiculous it is not to provide a social safety net.

If you actually listen to the hearing today you will realize that this is a systemic issue with the US healthcare system not something any politician can do much about.

The US is not built that way the CDC can't just fix it. That's the power and weakness of our system compared to other countries.

Here the leaders of CDC explains the problem in a nutshell.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxC9Q99il1Q

Regardless, now is the time to put aside partisanship and face the problem before us. There will be plenty of time for retrospection, after we get through this together.

>Ahh, the old cowardly downvote without comment because you don't like the reality of the situation that there is one party that's very much to blame

People are probably downvoting silently this time because explaining to you that you're obliviously consuming propaganda is one step deeper into flamewar territory which is unpopular on HN (and against the rules).

Case in point? Media reports that bill forcing employers to provide sick leave failed to pass because of evil Republicans. What you won't see on the news is the nuance that such a bill can't be passed without possibly bankrupting small businesses.

That's just one example. The administration shut down the border early on and was enthusiastically rewarded with accusations of sinophobia.

All politicians play this game. The US government institution has been rotting for decades, and yes, it really is a "both sides" issue when one side is so blinded by hatred that they refuse to acknowledge positive decisions.

There are literally almost as many people on the Republican side blindly dismissing everything Democrats do. Remember, Trump only lost the popular vote by 3%. Now is not the time for partisan idiocy.

>Case in point? Media reports that bill forcing employers to provide sick leave failed to pass because of evil Republicans. What you won't see on the news is the nuance that such a bill can't be passed without possibly bankrupting small businesses.

The bill literally includes the funding to pay for sick leave. That's why it's a FUNDING bill - I think you're confused about who is being mislead by propaganda.

Meanwhile, the GOP is trying to insert language about abortion into the bill because...?

The full text has not yet been published on congress.gov to verify who is paying and I can't find the full text elsewhere.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/341...

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/6150...

However, the press release from Murray and DeLauro makes it sound like businesses are paying: https://www.help.senate.gov/ranking/newsroom/press/coronavir...

If you have a primary source that shows that government, not businesses, are paying for the costs of sick leave as it relates to S.3415 and HR.6150, please share it.

I also can't find a single search result that includes the term abortion as it relates to either S.3415 or HR.6150.

It's honestly mindblowing that hacker news has reached the point where a comment asking for primary sources and evidence is downvoted.

Cheers

And all I could think was 'it's a PATRIOT act...'

Duh. Babies cost money and parents will do almost anything to keep it alive. Or at least bare minimum mandated by law. In either case, it is a sacrifice to the god of economy./$

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