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I interpreted all of the things you listed as indications that statistics and scientific analysis have limitations and can't predict success or failure, not as indications that he would fail and die in the end. This is perhaps the main theme of the film: "There is no gene for the human spirit."

You seem to have a thesis that the film is a tragedy and are working backwards from there. This goes against essentially everything in the film: its uplifting soundtrack, its message of overcoming the obstacles that society places in our way, and its argument that sometimes our true purpose is not to excel individually, but as a help and teammate to others.

> But there's the rub, Vincent didn't become an astronaut, "Jerome" did. Even when Vincent succeeded, he didn't.

Jerome is just his name and saying he didn't succeed because his achievements weren't listed under his own name seems a bit shallow, as if the only definition of success is fame. And again, a major theme of the story is that the two men are more capable of achieving great things together than apart. Remember that neither Vincent nor Eugene (Jerome) were in a good place prior to meeting each other. Jerome, the astronaut, is the successful identity created from the merging of both men, not simply one man using another's name.

> I interpreted all of the things you listed as indications that statistics and scientific analysis have limitations and can't predict success or failure, not as indications that he would fail and die in the end.

I did so for the "heart beats". But every other point has nothing to do with statistics or scientific analysis. I really can't say definitively that he died on his way to titan, but the evidence is fairly overwhelming. It wouldn't have been hinted at so much in the movie and the movie would not have ended with that quote otherwise.

> And again, a major theme of the story is that the two men are more capable of achieving great things together than apart.

That's a bit of a reach but you are entitled to the view.

> You seem to have a thesis that the film is a tragedy and are working backwards from there.

No. I watched Gattaca as a kid and loved it and saw it as an inspirational movie. Everything you believed, I believed. Then I got older and watched the movie a few more times. My thesis changed from inspirational to tragedy. As I said, my view of the movie changed. And I love the movie more now because it is richer, deeper and more consequential than a good simplistic feel good inspirational movie.

> And remember that neither Vincent nor Eugene (Jerome) were in a good place prior to meeting each other.

They weren't in a good place at the end either.

Anyways, you are entitled to your view. I used to view it like you and I suspect it's most people's first impressions when they first watch the movie. But after repeated viewing, it's hard to watch someone burning himself to death and a man's looking into space and "going home" as inspirational. There are inspirational aspects to the film, but I don't think that's what the movie is really about. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

> But every other point has nothing to do with statistics or scientific analysis. I really can't say definitively that he died on his way to titan, but the evidence is fairly overwhelming. It wouldn't have been hinted at so much in the movie and the movie would not have ended with that quote otherwise.

Do you have anything else that points to this? I've watched Gattaca 5-6 times I reckon, and never picked up on a hint that Vincent dies.

For the heart beats, I've always interpreted it as the world won't give him a chance because _statistically_ he has a low likelihood of success compared to the "guaranteed" success of genetic engineering. To me Vincent and Eugene are a rejection of this – showing that humans aren't just statistics, and that the guarantees are no such thing.

As for the "never saving anything for the way back" theme, I've always interpreted that as a part of this too. The idea that statistics aren't everything, going for the "guaranteed" outcome might limit your upside, etc.

I'm pretty sure that "going home" isn't a reference to death. In the context of the few lines it's in, he's talking about how maybe he's not leaving because the atoms in our bodies come from stars.

Finally, for me, there are too many references in Vincent's relationship with Irene that show an intent to return and an expectation that he will. Being gone for a year and that being "just one trip around the sun", lead the audience to see his trip as bittersweet because he's achieved his goal but will have to leave Irene temporarily, but ultimately a positive ending for him as he embarks on a new stage in his life. The gift of all the samples from Eugene, enough to last a lifetime, backs up this idea.

> Do you have anything else that points to this? I've watched Gattaca 5-6 times I reckon, and never picked up on a hint that Vincent dies.

Other than what I wrote, I can't think of anything else.

> For the heart beats, I've always interpreted it as the world won't give him a chance because _statistically_ he has a low likelihood of success compared to the "guaranteed" success of genetic engineering.

Same. I used to believe it. Now I don't. Sure. It's statistics. But there are actual physical limits and performance. Even though Vincent surpassed the time expectations of his heart ( which was a ball park figure with a margin of error ), he can't surpass the physical limits. He can't run without his heart nearly exploding. That's why he has to cheat. He needs record Jerome's heartbeat. Those tests are to ensure that the astronauts can survive months/years of space travel to Titan and to thrive in Titan. Vincent, at least his heart, can't perform.

Gattaca is a society with unfair genetic discrimination and also fair performance tests. Vincent could be praised for overcoming the unfair discrimination, but he should also be criticized for cheating fair performance tests.

If a legally blind person wanted to drive and cheated his way to a driver's license. Would you cheer him as he sits down on the driver's seat? Of course not.

> As for the "never saving anything for the way back" theme, I've always interpreted that as a part of this too. The idea that statistics aren't everything, going for the "guaranteed" outcome might limit your upside, etc.

Same. I used to believe it. Now I don't. Now I interpret it as someone who has a major inferiority complex and a huge chip on his shoulder that's willing to die rather than lose. Not only is he willing to commit suicide than lose, he's willing to kill his own brother in the process. If you think about what the swim contest was about, it's about Vincent's willingness to kill himself and his own brother. That's why in the second race, when Vincent tells his brother, his brother looks at him in absolute horror and turns back.

Vincent is all too human. The unfairness of society and his lot in life has made him willing to cheat, die and kill to get what he wants and screw over society.

> I'm pretty sure that "going home" isn't a reference to death. In the context of the few lines it's in, he's talking about how maybe he's not leaving because the atoms in our bodies come from stars.

"Leaving this world". "Going home". Returning to the atoms from whence we come from. Like ashes to ashes, dust to dust.

> Finally, for me, there are too many references in Vincent's relationship with Irene that show an intent to return and an expectation that he will.

He left his parents/brothers for good and he loved them. He also left Jerome to his death. Not sure Irene is that much more special. Vincent has shown that people means less to him than his goal. Besides, didn't the flight window between earth and titan open every 77 years or so? Besides vincent doesn't save anything for the trip back.

> The gift of all the samples from Eugene, enough to last a lifetime, backs up this idea.

Last "two" ( jerome's and vincent's ) lifetimes. Do you really think Jerome was able to produce that much blood, urine and skin/hair samples for two lifetimes? The last part of the film, both jerome and vincent were trying their best to avoid the elephant in the room ( their impending deaths ). That dinner scene, vincent asks jerome what he'll do after he leaves for titan. There is an awkward silence followed by silly response from jerome. And then Jerome toasts on his life on titan and asks what titan is like. But Jerome knows vincent is never going to reach titan alive and Vincent knows Jerome isn't going to last long after he leaves.

Besides, if Vincent intended to reach Titan and come back, he'd bring a few samples with him. Samples for id check on titan and of course id check when he arrives back on earth. If they check ids on the way to titan, don't you think there will be id checks on the way back or at least at the destination when he gets off the spaceship? But then again, he doesn't save anything for the trip back. His actions and his last statement makes me believe that he is not too long for this world.

Because the flight windows are so far apart, I interpreted it to mean that Vincent, once there, was set. They couldn't really send him back even if they wanted to.

And I read Jeromes suicide as the last act to "cover up" for Vincent (and Jeromes name). What would people say when someone found Jemore, alive or his corpse, in the home on Earth?

The last step was to disappear completely. If I recall correctly we were shown that the incinerator would burn until nothing was left there.

> Because the flight windows are so far apart, I interpreted it to mean that Vincent, once there, was set. They couldn't really send him back even if they wanted to.

Why would they need to send him back? Just imprison him in Titan. Also, society is based on genetics - where you work, where you live, who you date, etc. How did Vincent expect to live on Titan without Jerome's samples? I think the answer is he never intended to live on Titan because he knew he'd die on the way to Titan. We know that his heart can't handle the journey ( treadmill scene ).

> What would people say when someone found Jemore, alive or his corpse, in the home on Earth?

The same thing the cop said after questioning the wheelchair bound Jerome. Apologize after Jerome berated him and demanded his badge number. Besides, given your point about the flight window, what would it matter? Why would Jerome need to cover for him when Vincent's set on Titan?

I think that Jerome always intended to kill himself from the very beginning ( we know he's suicidal because he's in a wheelchair because of a failed suicide attempt ). Not to "cover up" for whoever he was helping, but because "Jerome wasn't meant to be 2nd place". In the incinerator, "2nd place Jerome" and his silver medal are no more. I also don't think he help vincent for the money or for vincent's sake though they developed a friendship towards the end. We know he was bitter at society ( and himself ) and I think he wanted to screw society once before offing himself.

In the end, it's two people dying to escape their "identity". One trying to erase his "invalid" identity and the other trying to erase his "2nd place" identity. And both perishing in the process.

We do not know that his heart failed during the journey. (It might.) We know that, reasonably, management would want the margin of error on the right side for a high investment journey.

> We do not know that his heart failed during the journey. (It might.)

Sure. We also do not know his heart didn't fail, though you seem sure it didn't. However, the clues throughout the movie make it fairly obvious that he doesn't make it.

> We know that, reasonably, management would want the margin of error on the right side for a high investment journey.

Sure. And we also know that he has heart problems and is living on borrowed time. We also know that running on the treadmill nearly leaves him breathless and clutching at his chest in terrible coughing fits. There must be a reason why that scene was in the movie. Don't you think?

The ending certainly leaves it open to interpretation. That's what's great about the movie. It didn't spoonfeed the audience. But it did provide hints/clues/etc.

Put it this way, there are tons of clues that he dies. There are no clues that he lives. If he lived, the movie would have some mentioned what he planned to do once on titan. Or any clue that he intended to survive the trip. Like maybe, Vincent telling Jerome, "Hey, I need a few samples to live on Titan" or "Hey, I got a nice apartment on Titan" or "Man, my new job on Titan is great" or anything indicating a life on Titan. Ever notice he never mentions his life on Titan? The only thing he is concerned about is getting on that spaceship.

If you were watching a kamikaze movie and at the end, the pilot flies off with enough fuel to reach the aircraft carrier group but not enough to make it back. Would you argue that he makes it back alive since we never actually see him carry out the attack? Sure, anything is possible, but highly unlikely.

Is it possible Vincent made it to titan? Sure, if they want to do a sequel perhaps. Is it likely? I don't think so. But it's art. Your interpretation is just as valid is mine.

Since yesterday I have started to remember more about the movie (it was a long time since) and I am starting to lean towards your interpretation. There are many clues, as you say. On my watchings I always took it to be one of those movies where they don't feel the need to show "Book 2" because "Book 1" was the interesting part. This movie is great. I always thought it was good, but now I think it's Great Art. This movie scares me shitless now.

He doesn't save anything for the trip back. But he gets back. Every time.

Thank you both for this discussion, it was quite enjoyable to read!

You have to work pretty hard to take the perspective that Vincent dies.

Vincent nearly fails the treadmill scene because he is on the edge of panicking under the stress of being revealed to be prime suspect in a murder case that might put him in jail wrongly and will blow his life's dream of getting to Titan.

It doesn't matter if they check his ID at Titan, whatever that means. He commented he is outside the police's jurisdiction on the way to Titan, he will have achieved his goal regardless of his publicly known validity after docking at Titan.

The line about going home is to illustrate that he is in fact, going home. He was always meant to be among the stars and found regular everyday life difficult. Through his teen years he studied astrophysics, he was an outcast. His home was, is and finally arrived among the stars. Vincent achieved exactly what he set out to do and so did Jerome. Jerome was upset that he was not the best swimmer, as he was designed to be and deliberately chose to walk into traffic. Jerome unable (or had no desire) to escape his own self-resentment, burns in it. Both Anton and Jerome suffer for defining themselves by their biology and the accompanied social expectations.

Jerome passes Vincent his hair as the last expression of his time on Earth. Jerome will no longer grow any hair, a natural measure of time. He has ceased to exist in a physical sense. His mission is complete in giving enough of his valid biological matter for his life and Vincent's life across time.

It is questionable what Vincent's goal in space is to do from a relational perspective.. He saved Anton from drowning twice and as lifted into space on the back of his own effort and everybody that let him pass through the system illegally. His father let him past the final checkpoint, Jerome gave his body, Anton gave him a gap in police authority, Irene did not expose his invalidity and the mission director pushed for the launch timing slot in the face of authoritative danger. What does Vincent give back for all this. A change in spirit from biological determinism to willpower over statistical fact. Not much in comparison to his launch.

Musing aside, Vincent lives.

> Vincent nearly fails the treadmill scene because he is on the edge of panicking under the stress of being revealed to be prime suspect in a murder case that might put him in jail wrongly and will blow his life's dream of getting to Titan.

The impression that it was 'the stress of being found out' is a novel interpretation to me. I always thought it was about the fact that he has a 'garbage' heart and he's basically actually going at 200% while it appears on the outside as if he's only doing 60 bpm.

Right at the end of his run his real BPM comes out because the recording from Jerome (Jude Law) reached its end and that's when he stops the exercise.

I didn't see it either that Vincent dies, but thank you, your perspective of it is really opening & interesting!

Will re-watch differently the movie now! :)