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Comment by swat535 | Hacker News Reader

You know what? I bet you, most people don't enjoy wasting 3h+ of the day commuting. Waking up at the crack of dawn to rush into the office.

They probably don't enjoy the forced beer night outs with coworkers and mundane water cooler conversations either. They have real friends and loved ones they rather be with.

People go to work so that they can put food on the table, they don't go to the office to socialize. There are plenty of better ways to interact with people other than the office.

I bet you, they also rather use their own private washrooms. Eat fresh food at home and be in their comfortable A/C home rather than a cramped office.

Just because the society demands that everyone joins the rat race to go to the office, it doesn't mean it's an acceptable status quo.

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In regards to the commute, you're probably right. But you live in a bubble if you think those most workers see nights out with their coworkers as "forced". After-work happy hours are the absolute highlight of the week/month for most people I know that work in banking, consulting, sales, education, etc. Many of them will even voluntarily meet up outside of work to spend more time together.

Many people, especially those in non-tech industries, aren't so introverted as most SWEs, and are actually friends with their coworkers and love the opportunity to socialize throughout the day while at work. Most everyone I know that works outside of tech would dread the thought of having to spend every day alone at home without people to chat with in the break room. Just because you apparently have such a negative attitude towards your coworkers does not mean that most others do.

That's until you reach a certain point in your life (baby, sponse) or the staff changes or teams structure.

We've all been there. The strongest bonds were made at my first few companies. Once you leave and are no longer friends hanging out you'll probably realize they are not true friends. But those times were great.

Besides we in tech need to go home to work on our side project.

> That's until you reach a certain point in your life (baby, sponse)

I’m past that point, as are all of my friends. Nothing in my comment is changed by that fact.

If anything, coworker relationships actually become more important as you get older and your other friends start to drift away. Post age 30, work is one of the best (if not the only, for most people) opportunities to socialize and make friends. I’ve noticed that people in other fields realize this and take advantage of it, but those in technical positions don’t, and many techies seem to even actively despise that aspect.

We are being treated as interchangeable cogwheels. At certain point you do start to despise the social aspects of work, yes.

Plus, I've had several people -- all the way to the CEO -- assure me how much I am appreciated and even looked at as a superhuman, yet 2 months later boom, we have to lay you off.

Defense mechanism or not, it's pretty normal to not mix personal and work lives and you pretending it's not dysfunctional to have friends at work is actually a bit worrying. You just got lucky, mate. That's cool and I am happy for you. But you should recognise it should absolutely not be the normal state of affairs.

No, I’m sorry that your situation is the way it is, but the dysfunctional mindset here is the one that thinks that making friends is not normal. If you really think the way that your post describes, you should find a new job ASAP because it is absolutely not healthy to view such a large portion of your life that way.

Being laid off has nothing to do with friendship. As your post even says, you should separate personal from business. I know several people who were separated from places of work and still maintain strong bonds with their now-former coworkers. I personally left my company of 5 years on not-so-great terms and yet several of the people in my wedding party are coworkers from that job. Work is a great place to begin friendships, and just because you no longer work at the same company does not mean your friendship has to end. And that’s the way it should be.

Well, I don't think we disagree. I know that friendships can start at work and I'm okay with that. I was mostly saying that it shouldn't be the norm because mixing work and personal life can lead to pretty nasty problems.

I too have a few pleasant acquaintances that are former co-workers, by the way.

Your original comment states that it is “dysfunctional to have friends at work”. We absolutely disagree.

Seems like we do then. In my eyes it's something that shouldn't be encouraged but also shouldn't be resisted if it happens naturally.

I've observed a lot of Stockholm syndrome in people in offices and that made me believe many are forcing relationships at work so at to make their workplace more tolerable. I could be wrong though.

Yeah... it's called being polite and sociable

Let's not conflate being professional (which includes being polite) with actually making friends in the office. Very different things.

Right, that's why I included being 'sociable' as well!

Ah well, at this point I believe I made the wrong impression. I am actually quite an ongoing guy and easily bond with people.

HOWEVER, when in a work setting I prefer to grab the problem at hand by the horns and start wrestling it. I like small talk -- maybe even too much! -- and that's exactly why I gradually learned to deflect most such attempts by colleagues so as not to be in an awkward position later after I have bonded with 10+ people but got zero work done. :D

You know?

No, I don't know. I don't have trouble navigating being personable to my coworkers and getting work done. In fact, it's kind of hard to imagine how being personable gets in the way of productivity, when I'd imagine the opposite to be true - that is to say a lack of personableness amongst co-workers in an office would lead to inefficiencies. I'm not sure how being personable, to you, means bonding to the extent that nothing got done.

I've seen being too personable get in the way of productivity.

- The employee who spends the day having extra long visits around the office.

- The employee who joins every social event team possible so much they are never doing their core role

- The helpful senior dev who spends all day teaching a junior only to avoid the bug queue and push their work to other seniors

- The company meeting where everyone listens as Sally is given an above and beyond reward for their work on a project everyone else did but Sally. Sally is very personable with the CEO

Let's just get our work done.

Sigh, not one joke gets past you.

Thanks for the discussion.

> Plus, I've had several people -- all the way to the CEO -- assure me how much I am appreciated and even looked at as a superhuman, yet 2 months later boom, we have to lay you off.

It most likely wasn't their choice. You can't really have that affect your friendships.

Coworkers are not your friends. If they are, I think it's unhealthy because it mean you have sentimental bound with the company you work for. That mix badly with business (because the relationship you have with your company is a business one).

If an other company offer XX% more than your current company but you stay for your "friends" you could have a big disappointment in the future.

I personally think this would be a very difficult mindset to have in regards to an environment I spend so much of my time in. Just because you have a financial business relationship with your employer does not mean you can’t have friendships with other people that also have business relationships with your employer. It would be unhealthy to not have some type of friendship with people you spend so much time with.

The majority of my closest friends (and their closest friends) are people that started from work relationships and we have had no problem leaving those companies when the time came, and we have maintained our friendships. It’s not any different than any other friendship where people sometimes move or start new hobbies.

That said, if someone does choose to stay at a specific company because they have friends there... so what? Having a strong social circle and support network is, in many cases, a better reason to work at a company than a higher paycheck.

I definitely have work friends, but it's disingenuous to call most peoples relationship with their boss just a "financial relationship".

In the US your healthcare and well-being are pretty much dependent on your job. And make no mistake, this is 2020, where your org will fire you for any reason so long as it makes sense to an MBA. As your sole source of income and healthcare they wield immense power in your life, and any interactions you have with coworkers or other work-related engagements are going to revolve around that power disparity in some way. Sure there are freelancers and well paid devs who can come and go as they please, but those are a tiny minority compared to all of those who are thusly constrained.

Point is, don't make work your social life cuz when they fire your ass you're going to lose your support network AND your meal ticket.

Two thoughts:

1) This is a self fulfilling prophecy. It's no secret that when it comes time to let people go (or time to promote), managers (even the MBA boogeymen) will stick their neck out for people they like more than for people they do not know. If you're continuously being dropped like a hot rock by your employers and you don't think it's because of performance reasons, perhaps you should reconsider your work relationship habits.

2) What's with the notion that you "lose your support network" just because you get fired? There is no reason that you should stop being friends with people just because you lose your job, even if those friendships stemmed from your workplace. I understand that it may be more difficult to find the time to socialize with them if you are not at work with them (which is exactly why it's worth it to go to those "forced beer nights" and build a relationship outside the context of work), but that doesn't mean you should stop putting in the effort and cut ties entirely.

Even if you are entirely career focused, getting fired is a situation in which you should actually lean heavier on your support network, especially coworker friends, as they are the ones that most likely can do the most to help you find a replacement job.

I've group friends at work and we have a whatsapp group where we talk at least a few times a week. Three people in our group of 6 left for new jobs this past year and we're still in contact. One guy moved to Michigan for a job last June. He came back to NY just to visit us and we organized a few dinners and get togethers during his stay. It's not really a farfetched idea to love the people you work with every day.

I would have hard time calling those kind of people my friend by my definition of friendship. How much time do you see those people IRL ? Online relationship meaning nothing to me. The work place force relation between people. I work with a guy I hate for almost 2 years. You are not my friend because I m forced to work with you. You are my friend if you are willing to make a sacrifice for me the same way I would for you.

If changing employers is what breaks the friendship, then it wasn't a very good friendship to begin with.

I really don't see the issue in socialising with colleagues and potentially becoming friends.

I think you make some valid points for some people, but I think you may be overlooking the fact that for some, the social connections made at work can be very valuable. Especially for people who recently move to a new area, "work friends" can be as valuable as other social groups.

I go to the office to socialize. Its not my primary reason of course, but I value the conversations I have over lunch, and we often take time to play games after work or get involved in sports as a bonding experience. To dismiss the social aspects of office work is going a bit too far.

I accept though that many people feel like you do in this case. I just want to point out that many people may value the things that you do not.

> I bet you, they also rather use their own private washrooms.

Underrated perk. I used to have to go down 6 floors and search for a nice, hidden restroom on a mostly female floor to be comfortable.

Being in charge of what paper products are purchased is a strong perk as well. Ditto the coffee beans, afternoon tea & Pens stocked by the office manager (me)

> They probably don't enjoy the forced beer night outs with coworkers and mundane water cooler conversations either

Those mundane water cooler conversations are the only conversations I'd get if I weren't in the office. I enjoy them.

> There are plenty of better ways to interact with people other than the office

Like what?

Lots of people prefer different things. I'm not sure I understand the acrimony here. My point was that they can be advantages to being in person and this wfh Utopia is not one size fits all.

Your experience and personal issues don't reflect the thinking of the rest of the world

> wasting 3h+ of the day commuting

It's not wasting, it's time to myself.

Do you have kids?

I get a lot done during that time, I need that.

not sure why this is so downvoted

Commuting (if done by public transport anyway) can be productive time, personal development time, gaming time, reading time etc. It's often the only time people get to themselves all day.

Even if you drive, there are podcasts and audiobooks.

You have got to be kidding me. Melting precious, finite fossil fuels to spend time going to your job because you need time away from your family? How can you sincerely sit here and type this?

I’ll take the downvotes- this is absurdity.

Agreed. It's funny that they're failing to see the irony that WFH is a way for them to reclaim that time, by instead of being forced to commute, bugging off to your nearest coffee shop and getting some of that time for yourself without the hassle.

Also, some people don't get to commute on comfy trains, ubers, or cars, and instead have to take crowded subway trains where this time is for themselves and shared with the other 6 people touching their body and breathing down their neck.

Commuting by car is mostly wasted time too unless you really like audiobooks and podcasts.

I've often marveled at the absurdity of how many of my coworkers openly admit that a big appeal of the office for them is getting away from their wives and kids. Healthy and normal!

Before becoming a parent I wondered about it too. Now I understand. Little kids are a disaster to one's brainpower and sanity. WFH with an infant next door is much harder. Going to an office to work really feels like a break instead of a chore.

In my life experience, myself included, I often knew about something a lot when, in fact, I really didn't. I suspect those that are down-voting us older people haven't yet experienced what we did or are.

I believe so. Before my daughter was born, I thought I knew what to expect. I was very wrong, but not in the things I thought I might be. A lot of minutiae of parenthood caught me by surprise - and ended up explaining mysteries like suddenly starting to enjoy the office.

I've been working from home for 8 years. If you really desire the commute, just go drive around. Or, better yet, take a walk or bike. I do this every day in the summer. It's much more enjoyable than being packed in traffic.

It’s sad that you have so little control over your time. This is an extreme rationalization if I’ve ever heard it. Wouldn’t you rather have alone time anywhere else but crammed in a train? Perhaps, a park?

A train, not too crammed and with a table, is actually a nice place to be alone for an hour with one's laptop, working on one's favourite open source project, studying something of interest, or reading Hacker News.

A park is fine for a stroll, a stretch, a bit of fresh air.

But people need quiet, unpressured, indoors time to themselves as well.

Coffee shop outside work time works too, in theory. (Although those can be more packed than a train.)

But you may have to fight to be "allowed" alone time if it appears to be discretionary, because not everyone understands or accepts that. They think it is selfish.

People are strange, and will happily understand and let someone "go to work" with set hours and a "commute". But strangely, not if the someone wants the equivalent personal time outside work with no commute.

You are right that it's sad for someone to have that little control over their time. But it is a fact of life for many people with families. "Work" time is accepted only when the time appears imposed by a third party; self-selected alone time, not so much.

That sounds lovely but doesn't match everyone's experiences. I spent two years commuting from Park Slope to the Upper West Side in NYC for a 9-5 job (so rush hour commutes). Standing room only, two transfers, loud, smelly, and stressful. No way to read or do anything productive.

Public transit vs fighting through traffic is a vastly different experience. Maybe if it was a relaxing drive in, but if you live around a major metro, traffic is probably horrendous and it's hard to enjoy that time.

It can be; it can also be a sardine can with no room for that.

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