Comment by ailideex | Hacker News Reader

Comment by ailideex | Hacker News Reader

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Maybe a bit unrelated, I got used to Windows 2000, then window XP, then Gnome 2, then Gnome 3 came. So I stuck with Gnome 2, then moved to XFCE, and now with RHEL 8 I had to use Gnome 3 because there were no other options. Gnome 3 is an absolute horror show. I don't know who made it, for who, and what the theory behind it is but I don't see how it would be easier to use for someone non technical, my parents both understood how to use Windows 2000. It is just weird. It is harder to multitask as efficiently as I did in XFCE and Gnome 2. Gnome 3 is not simpler - it is just more convoluted.

And I feel this is a very similar situation with other tools. I edit code with vim, in a terminal. This is simple as dirt. I do it because it is simple as dirt. Visual Studio is incredibly complicated to me because to do the creating code part my job I need to understand the following:

- How code is built.

- How to build the code without using any graphical front end.

- But now when you bring VS into the mix I need to also understand visual studio. It does not remove complexity, it adds it.

Similar thing with debugging, I need to understand all the ins and outs of debugging but now bring VS into the mix and I need to understand it's stupid UI.

I like simple, my mind is simple. I can learn things, if there are rules and patterns it makes it easier to learn, but the less things I have to learn the happier I am. I don't have an option to not learn some things, like how to do build automation, how to debug code, how computers work, etc. But I do have an option to not learn something entirely useless like VS.

I think the lie being sold is that somehow you can be a programmer without actually knowing how to use a computer. And to know how to use a computer is not the same thing as knowing how to click on things in the UI with a mouse. To know how to use a computer you need to understand how to use it to do automation - and once you need to do this VS is just a nuisance.

Just a rant I guess.

I think you are missing an important aspect: VS can help you in mental tasks the same way a jackhammer can help more than a pickaxe in physical tasks.

Sure, the pickaxe is simpler, but it will take you a lot longer to break that concrete with a pickaxe than with a jackhammer, because of simple human limitations.

Similarly, refactoring and advanced code navigation support takes a while to learn how to use, but once you do, it empowers you through technology to quickly do things that your mind would take much longer to do by hand.

For example, say you want to extract some code from the middle of a function into a separate function. With vim, you would generally have to manually move the code, write the new function header, then start to painstakingly inspect the code to identify the parameters to pass between the two. You will probably make mistakes and have to wait for the compiler to find them. All in all, assuming it's a bit of hairy code, it might easily take you more than an hour to get it working. In VS, you would type ctrl-r, ctrl-m (Refractor, extract Method) and it would automatically detect all of these for you, pop out a dialog box, you'd enter the new function name, Tab, param name, tab, param name etc, and enter when you're done. Maybe 5 minutes all in all, assuming you also do some ctrl-r, ctrl-p (refractor, parameter) afterwards to extract some larger expressions back into the original function.

Similarly, you have things like 'analyze data flow to...' which can find all places in your program where a particular value can be written to, and do that recursively until you get to the original source. Same thing - this can be done by hand with a series of finds and so on, but an advanced tool will just help you do it faster.

But, just like with advanced editing in vim, you need to take the time to learn the tool until you can get the most out of it. Same as the first time you enter vim you're likely to fumble to even be able to exit, you can't expect to be productive in VS if you don't take the time to learn what it can do for you.

VS is great for visual debugging, the build was secondary: you set it once and forget. But it only worked in the era of the proprietary software because you didn't have much third-party stuff to link into your project. Testing has changed too: you'll write an automatic test anyway, which means that the software is shaped for debugging by writing tests.

VS is decent at debugging if it does not fall apart in the process - which for me happens more often than not. So not really useful.

The only way I found of making Gnome bearable these days:

https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/1160/dash-to-panel/

I also use it, but it is quite buggy and not quite enough. Luckily xfce is now available for RHEL8 via EPEL.

> then moved to XFCE, and now with RHEL 8 I had to use Gnome 3 because there were no other options.

Wait, what happened to XFCE? I use it right now.

RHEL8 doesn't let you install a different desktop environment?

I'd look into switching to Fedora. I use the XFCE spin and it is stable.

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