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Comment by chrstphrknwtn | Hacker News Reader

Do you share the opinion that software doesn’t qualify as engineering?

I’ve always thought it is a little bit of a stretch.

Engineering means using math to model your solution so the first time you build something it works to spec. Or at least it's close enough to only require minor changes, not a fresh redesign.

It's essentially applied physics.

Software is more like nailing things together in the hope they might work. ML has some modelling, and formal methods are available for mission critical projects.

But the rest is mostly nail guns and glue.

Engineers have never done themselves any favours with the "engineering" label. In many countries, especially English-speaking ones, the job doesn't get the respect it deserves.

Most people have no idea what the job involves. They literally think it means someone with an oily rag who fixes cars and/or computers and/or drives big machines around to make bridges and tunnels and such - like a house builder, but on a bigger scale.

* "Engineering is the use of scientific principles to design and build machines, structures, and other items"

* Mathematics isn't only about calculation and applied physics. When you write a simple algorithm and convince yourself with a logical argument about its correctness, time complexity, etc. that is math too. You also do calculations when you design various systems (latency, throughput, etc.)

* I know a dozen mechanical, structural, and electrical engineers. They almost never model anything from first mathematical principles, they use well known tools and methods they learned. Their "nail guns and glue". Actually I think most of them don't understand math/physics behind it very deeply. So even if those methods are underpinned with mathematics and physics, it's abstracted away most of the time which is good for practical purposes.

Even in "user-interface programming", I often had to use math, algorithms, etc. In other parts of software engineering I used it much more.

Even most mechanical/civil engineers use very simplified models than is used by physicists. Engineers usually use Newtonian mechanics in its elementary formulation, and is not usual for them to be familiar with Lagrangian/Hamilton/Variational formulations.

But how many mech/civil engineers actually do any math beyond napkin calculations in their day-to-day work? It's way too complicated and all the math is now done by computers. In fact I'd argue that outside of research more computer scientists are doing mechanical engineering math than actual mechanical engineers, because they have to write the CAD software that the latter use. At the end of the day the vast majority of mechanical, civil, electrical engineers and computer scientists work on stuff that doesn't require math at all.

That's thereason why I always call myself a Software Developer. It allows me to explain what I do as opposed to the baggage laden "engineer" title.

What does the word "developer" mean to other people? If you want to keep it simple, why not "programmer"?

Depending who I talk to, I use "programmer" or "software engineer" most often.

"Developer" is appropriately diffuse in its meaning. It includes all the steps of making software happen, requirements gathering, critical thinking thereon, etc. "Programmer" can sound like just "guy what taps on the keyboard". It can even be faintly perjorative in some contexts.

I'd use "software engineer" if I could in good conscience, but "software developer" is pretty neutral while still being accurate.

To clarify, I use "programmer" when speaking to very non-technical people, usually elderly. Many other languages have a similar word but it might have different connotations, for example, be less negative (pejorative).

Programmer might mean technician too.

My view is software is literacy not engineering or science.

It tends to make more sense for me. A book that starts out as a romance is just as hard to convert to a spy thriller half way through as a bridge and a tunnel (Ok not total effort but in terms of percentage of rework)

I think you mean "literature".

Yeah. I use the term software literacy a lot so my bad

I always thought engineering was simply applied math and science. You're not researching and testing new theory explaining the nature behind how phenomena work, or developing new mathematical techniques, that's for scientists and mathematicians. Rather engineers take their work, and apply it to invent things and solve problems.

As so, I'd consider software development can qualify as engineering. If you're taking the work of computer scientists and mathematicians (or any other science fields) and applying it to software, it fits the definition. If you're just laying code to a given spec without much more thought, then you're just a programmer/developer...

May be software programmers work is more similar to how mathematicians work, rather than of engineers, though with a more imperative, procedural bent.

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