In defense, I don't think anybody that was on-board at the beginning realized this. I do, however, feel that anybody in the last decade working at FB should have been smart enough to figure out what was going on. They just didn't care.
In defense, I don't think anybody that was on-board at the beginning realized this. I do, however, feel that anybody in the last decade working at FB should have been smart enough to figure out what was going on. They just didn't care.
We should rather treat it as a brand new society with new balances, like after Gutemberg’s invention of the printer, which enabled communication and gave birth to Martin Luther, the accession of Bible translation to masses, the accession of The Encyclopedia, and more generally, the Humanists.
And maybe, just maybe, we should have taken better care of so many people we’ve put in such horrible situations that content binging becomes better than their life. Rather than assuming they were just crybabies.
It may seemed callused, but they _are_ just crybabies. Just because social media facilitates the formation of certain identity groups now does not mean that the cultures formed from those identities are good or productive. Just look at the increase in suicides, depression, school shootings, and general extremism since the spread of social media. Those are not mentalities that we should foster and support IMO.
>Those are not mentalities that we should foster and support IMO.
Those are not the same thing. The first says to connect people to services that can help stem the negative and unproductive mentalities. Yours says to help them grow that negativity. These are not the same things.
it seems extreme student violence, incels, increased violence, depression and suicide
1. seems to be more of an anerican phenomena (incels, student shootings)
2. started to sharply increase after 2008 financial crisis when huge swaths of people went through huge personal and societal stresses [0]
so while online media can definitely be attributed to accelerating and manipulation of people being easier, i would posit that the seeds were already there in the culture and environment...
[1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/report-2008-financial-crisis-in...
[edit] just to clarify: this isnt to mean i give fb a free pass of course... they are making money off of manipulating people with this kind of misery and extremism which i find reprehensible
If you'll allow, I'll use a political example from 15+ years ago.
When young Bush was running for president, you'd see commentators on TV talking about which candidate had some demographic. Such-and-such had the 50+ white male vote, so-and-so had the hispanic vote, and so on.
These people did not know what they were talking about, but it made for good TV. The people who knew what they were talking about, the folks like Karl Rove, knew that today they were looking to talk about subject X in context Y to a certain type of voter described by several adjectives in precinct 7 of the south side of Columbia, SC.
Pick a word that describes a social problem, say homelessness. There's not one homelessness, there's a dozen or more, each with their own qualities. There's people who are the victim of a disaster, people who have medical bills, people with addiction problems, people living in poverty on purpose for religious reasons, etc. Not only do the reasons vary, the possible solutions vary by personality, demographic, geographic location and resources, and so on.
Your response to my point demonstrates the problem. We talk about social problems in grand and expansive terms because we have to. Otherwise we'd spend forever in analysis. Politicians get elected based on grand visions for social problems expressed in expansive terms. But the actual problems themselves are highly nuanced. So what you're suggesting is that we throw everybody worldwide into one bucket, stick a label on them, and attempt to help them. That's only going to be a workable solution in only the most simple cases. In fact it's not workable. I'm being kind.
Worse, for all of the cases where it doesn't help, you've just given over a monopoly of ideas, labels, and solutions to some company that's beholden to nobody, Facebook. So what will happen, what is happening now, is that people looking to exploit problems are working at the very detailed level. Right now there's probably some scammer looking to target 70+ white females in Sioux City Iowa who voted for Bernie last time. That guy is going to exploit the hell out of his target. There are thousands of targets like this. But when we identify the problem, all we get is how great it is to have some universal solution to addiction or something.
Yes, in grand terms wouldn't it be great to have some solution to X? I'd love it. But that's not how these kinds of solutions work. What we're doing is enabling the people with bad intent to have their way while justifying it all with promises of how huge categories of people might be helped. That's bullshit, and it's the kind of bullshit we've put up with for far too long from SV, making money with one hand while giving out platitudes with another, trusting on the complexity of the application to hide what's really happening from the average voter. It's only continuing. Now, however, we're going to take it to the next level, regulatory capture.
So for example the net cost of normalising college debt, and the regulatory exceptions to bankruptcy etc around this form of debt, is not simply a generation entering the workforce in debt. It's massive concrete measurable inequality between those who can afford to work in internships (unpaid or underpaid) and those who's loans prevent that. It's exclusion from education for those who cannot take on enormous debt (or won't be granted loans). It's a shift to crude utilitarianism in education generally, because the insane cost of a degree means you'd be insane to do one that doesn't 'repay' its perceived value etc etc.
This is true again and again for the social issues created by the American economic-social pact (call it neoliberalism or what have you). From the knock on domestic violence, abuse and intergenerational trauma caused by the warrior culture of Americans gargantuan military, to its normalisation of militarised policing.
What all these issues have in common it a cultural unwillingness to tackle what are often substantively simple root causes. Issues which have been dealt with successfully in other cultures.
So in confusing how the electorate can be trivially manipulated by playing into their psychographic preferences and prejudices, with the relative complexity of social issues you're actually conceding to the delusion that politics is entertainment. That it's not candidates positions that matter, but the perception of those positions. That really most problems are simply impossible to solve (rather than politically unfeasible in the American context). That the political confusion and anger of the present moment is exclusively generated through persuasion rather than the justifiable (though often misdirected) result of concrete solvable issues.
We can disagree about the causes of social issues in America, and their solutions; but its inarguable that there has been no effort to systematically test and deploy policy interventions at a national level in any kind of evidence based way. The map in America, has become the territory.
I think you've created a bit of a dichotomy where none was implied. All of our experiences online can be a form of entertainment, at least in part, politicians may be elected or not based on perception, and it's critically important to have and express values using good people. These ideas do not have to be in conflict with one another, and no cynicism on my part was intended.
Why do we need to do these things at the national level?
The federal government is intentionally not set up to be able do these kinds of things. Doing these things at the federal level is an exercise in Constitution avoiding mental gymnastics and you wind up with hacks like withholding federal money or insane interpretations of the commerce clause in order to get things done or your policy winds up hanging by a threat that SCOTUS can cut at any minute (e.g. Obamacare).
Using policy to mitigate social problems does seem to work well at the state level (for any given problem there seems to always be a state that's doing a good job tackling the problem) because the states don't have to implement back handed legislative solutions or compromise things as many ways and generally run at smaller scale. (For example, there are at least a couple states that have decent universal healthcare programs.)
In the case of healthcare, the coverage standards, cost controls, revenue collection and payments must be handled at the federal level, otherwise you will end up with huge differences in benefits between state programs, which will result in similar issues seen with insurance companies today.
For example, today, insurance companies are often loathe to pay for expensive-upfront but cheaper long-term procedures because the typical time for customer retention is correlated with how long their customers stay at their job. They don't want to pay for the procedure that their competitor is going to get the cost savings from down the road.
There is nothing to stop an unregulated US-state run universal health system from doing the same thing.
Also, because US states by definition have open borders, it would encourage health care arbitrage in densely populated border areas, which would overstress the systems of states with better health coverage, leading to inevitable legal conflict between those states.
This is not to say that states can't play a role in the day-to-day local administration of healthcare benefits - just as they do with Medicare today - but the baselines have to be defined at a federal level.
Or maybe, alternate world view, it does not even matter as much as you think it does.
How do you go about connecting ads viewed to votes, or even poling data? Of those views how many users engaged with the content?
From my perspective, it has all of the hallmarks of a moral panic, right down to the calls to "think of the children."
Do you have a citation for this? It seems like a failure in the free market if organizations spend $55 billion [1] on Facebook advertisements with no benefit.
==From my perspective, it has all of the hallmarks of a moral panic, right down to the calls to "think of the children."==
What data is that perspective based on or is it just your gut feeling (aka bias)?
[1] https://martechtoday.com/despite-ongoing-criticism-facebook-...
Look, I'm not say that FB ads are totally useless in general, just that there's some burden of proof when you claim they swayed an election.
> What data is that perspective based on or is it just your gut feeling (aka bias)?
People have literally used the phrase "think of the children," or some variation.
Second, campaigns are not driven like companies.
You should also consider that you are not viewing reality correctly.
We keep having these discussions about the impact of social media as if the relationship was directly causal, ie Zuck pushes a button and robot people do his bidding. Wish the problem were so easy. It's at scale, dealing with fractions of percentages over thousands of randomly subsegmented markets, nobody knows what the hell is going on. It's incomprehensible by any human.
What we know is that people pay billions of dollars to advertise there. We know that most of the world's population (!) has signed up. We know that people who quit feel better. We can observe people doing and saying things with other people at a scale never seen before. In fact, that's one of the selling points. We know that more and more studies are showing addictive and maladaptive behavior from people who spend a lot of time there.
We're not trying to convict FB in a court of law or inventing some new science. The preponderance of all the available evidence says that there's a major social change at work worldwide that has at least some deleterious effects. Works for me. Any small number times a billion is a big number. That's the entire business model of social media. You logically can't deny the way social media works in order to make a defense of social media.
I do understand your criticism but it is in the same line as how christian priests opposed education for peasants. They argued that if the ordinary massed could read it would mean they will read stuff they are not supposed to read. I am pretty sure similar criticism has be forced on TV, Cellphones, Comic books and what not.
I would say relax, this too shall will pass and even bigger distraction would take over our lives.
No, there is a shit load of difference. It is far more costly to spread misinformation through those other channels. Sure nation-states and tv/cable-companies with agenda will still exist, but ordinary citizen like me, with an agenda, won’t be able to anonymously spread conspiracy theories for $100 ~ $1000
We feel that way because rich people operate at scale and poor people steal candy from 7/11. Level playing field is a myth it will never exist anywhere ever.
Also sentiment on HN - ads don’t work and companies spend billions of dollars for nothing.
It's a strange world for sure, and one that I am virtually certain will come to a crashing halt in this century.
Nobody is required to buy facebook stocks. If you do not want this company to continue it's operations, just get rid of it (if you owned it in the first place).
Facebook, IMO (I minored in psych) is entirely built on a solid understanding of human psychology and how to control it. Add in ads and profit!
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber
If tech is building new edifices to the capabilities of tech, then Facebook is certainly tech, and the nightmare Facebook has become is inevitable. (Though I agree with other commenters that FB probably matters much less than we with in-built pro-tech biases are willing to believe.)
Otherwise, if tech is "doing more with less," then Facebook is extremely hard to justify as tech.
They do care, the piles of money make them care less.