Facebook is not "specifically designed to cause addiction". It's designed by a complicated process with many people trying to maximize many competing metrics, some of which might go up when people are "addicted". In fact the complete opposite is one of the main goal metrics for most teams (measures of well being) and only a small fraction of people are even trying to increase time spent.
I stopped using FB a few years ago after I had an argument with a friend on the platform. The algorithm decided to keep showing us one anothers’ content - I assume so we would both write more angry comments (“engagement!”). I ended up blocking the friend, then on reflection left the platform entirely, since as far as I can tell FB was optimising as intended to manipulate me.
Has it changed since then?
> On what basis are you claiming that that most teams at FB are optimising the product for well being as opposed to ‘engagement’ (addiction)? Do you have first hand knowledge? Do you know the people involved? Do you have citations?
OP answers this in his first paragraph.
> bla bla I left facebook bla bla
You are arguing that "the algorithm" didn't read your mind and figured out you are actually "mad" at your friend, not simply interacting.
ps: sentiment out of bodies of text is not a terrible old thing, is fairly new.
And if facebook emphasizes content you engage with (albeit negatively), you end up with anecdotes like yours.
Facebook is a tool, use it as such rather than being entitled and feeling disempowered. You can hide people from your timelines, get "less messages like these" and more.
Is it unreasonable to expect facebook to be able to determine the tone of the conversation. They probably already do this or are in the process of researching this. This is a great feature and I look forward to getting content aligned with my mood. I'm mad, show me angry posts, I'm nervous show me calm posts. I'm bored show me exciting videos. Maybe a box on top how do you feel to determine current mood.
Users complaining give free feedback. As a developer it helps shape the product.
the tools are there on facebook to control the content of your feed to quite an extent. if you don't use this and demand that facebook change its system to adjust the feed for everyone based on your personal tastes, yes I think that's entitled.
not saying I like or even use Facebook, but still.
That's actually the feeling I get from YouTube when you try to Like a video when not signed in: "Like this video? Sign in to make your opinion count." -- I always found it mildly condescending.
both the examples you've listed are still with the goal of having people spend more time on facebook
Just because the solution would be hard or complex doesn't mean FB gets to continue its problematic behaviour.
> Facebook is a tool, use it as such
It is not. It is a corporation and you definitely don't get to use it like a tool.
At its most charitable, it is a tool like a beehive is a tool to make honey. Which are less dangerous than Facebook and still require protective gear to operate.
Also "engagement" is not the same as addiction. People who follow more close friends are more engaged on FB, but they are not addicted.
That's debatable. I think people who spend hours pouring through pictures from thousands of acquaintances and commenting can be considered addicted, especially when it becomes difficult to get their attention from it. I see it with people over 50 most often, I think because of an internal desire to feel connected with people who they drifted apart from years ago, or to live vicariously through others.
Agreed, but the point is that FB's algorithm optimizing for "engagement" is in fact also optimizing for addiction[0]. And so are many others of a certain type of industry that includes YouTube, FB, Instagram, etc. It's not quite social networks, but a common factor seems to be that they're ad-funded and highly automated.
[0] and I believe it is currently way beyond our state of the art to design an algorithm that does not have this unwanted property.
First, as an employee there is a tendency to find and only focus on the good aspects of your employer. This is not a bad thing, it's what helps us get out of the bed in the morning and go to work. It can wrap your perception though and make you more biased.
Second, you were part of a company and like any other company it wants to maximize its profits, i.e. maximize the engagement. I really want to believe you (and in some degree I actually do) that there are teams that focus on users' wellbeing (however this is measured) but in the end of the day, if it will come down to decide if I will be shown a post that has higher chance of generating profit VS a post that will make me feel better, in the vast majority of cases it will show me the first kind. You don't make money by being nice, unless you can combine the two. Facebook has done everything that it could to destroy any good will that we may have had to trust that it wants to combine the two (think about the experiment about influencing people's mood from a couple of years ago)
A banner with a text similar to what blunderkid wrote would be not only fair and accurate but the least we could do. And Facebook has only itself to blame for it.
The addiction component would be the constant concern with either how you are perceived on the platform or outrage with what others are saying.
I see precisely nothing they’ve done to increase the well being of people who are constantly tilted by the dumbest political garbage.
There were probably thousands of internet companies that competed to be the dominant sites in the 90s and 00s. By several orders of magnitude the predominant business model is ads for eyeballs, and the predominant network effect scales with number of users.
Several factors influenced success but, on average, sites that captured user attention more effectively got more views and a larger userbase. Thus there was overall selective pressure for addictive properties, and sites like Reddit, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram won over sites that were less able to hold attention like Blogger, Digg, MySpace, etc.
We cannot know, for example, that Jack Dorsey was knowingly trying to maximize outrage with his character limit, which feeds into the "two-minutes-hate" emotional addiction. But we can be sure that he was trying to maximize several KPIs like # users, bounce rate, time on page, etc.
The result? The dominant sites today == the sites that are best able to capture attention!
How successful were they? Not only have they captured a huge portion of time people spend on the internet, the amount of time people are on the internet has itself increased! So they won over other websites and also grabbed attention away from traditional media, newspapers, random thoughts while standing in line, uninterrupted dinner, etc. time.
What's the problem? I think the major challenge is that these sites feel more effective at shaping attention than many drugs (no reference for this yet)!
This parallels the opioid crisis -- maximizing certain good pain relief characteristics (short onset, hits opioid receptors) just happens to be addictive. I doubt the Sacklers cackled during dinner and clinked glasses at the future misery they were causing, but it's pretty damn easy to convince yourself that you're doing the right thing when the money is rolling in.
Jack Dorsey similarly thinks he's saving the world but he's probably the single most responsible person for the "populist politician" phenomenon.
This is one of those things where no amount of regulation or blaming FB (or instagram or twitter or HN or whatever) is going to help much. It might be more fruitful to think about why people spend so much time online outside of productive work, instead of having person to person interactions, playing sports, playing music etc. Just a small example - there is not a single park within 10 miles of where I live, but there are at least 3 big malls (sprawling ones with dozens of stores).
Why is it billion times better? I spend a lot of time on Facebook talking to my family that lives on the other side of the world. Is spending time talking with other geeks more valuable?
One site is owned by a huge corporation and other is owned by a company that tries to get rich by creating more corporations.
If Facebook doesn’t do it, then LinkedIn or Twitter will. So Facebook is like Microsoft - do whatever it takes to win.
Notifications can be designed to be less addictive, but that's not what Facebook is doing.
We have known this since 2011 when we started Qbix to build an open source alternative — see https://qbix.com/people for a list of how it is different and more responsible. I hope other companies take on board these principles. Our tagline is “Empowering People. Uniting Communities”. So I feel passionate about this.
If well being were truly important, those moderators would be treated like valuable core metric maintainers, not barely paid, badly unsupported afterthoughts.
And advertising performance and monetization would take a back seat as well, which is obviously not the case.
Step out of your prior employee shell, and look at the whole picture of FB's interaction with its users. Not a net positive, and as others have said, no one but themselves (Zuck?) to blame.
- People use Facebook in a way which is destructive to society, and this is partially due to how Facebook is built.
vs.
- Facebook planned on being this addictive (and destructive) on purpose.
We already have warnings in one way or another for: expired SSL certificates, lack of HTTPS, potential malware sites, if your account may have been breached (at least in Firefox), requests for your location or to show notifications, etc.
The next logical step is to have our user agent warn us about sites that have bad reputation for protecting your data.
I use the DuckDuckGo Privacy Essentials, which gives a letter grade based off of the trackers used and terms of service analysis from tosdr.org, in your browser toolbar. You can get it from here:
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/duckduckgo-privacy...
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/duckduckgo-fo...
> Instead of regulation, maybe have browsers give you a warning on how the site your about to visit treats your personal data?
That wouldn't work. Facebook may see browser warnings like that as an existential threat. In response, they could create their own browser and heavily push it on users, a la Google & Chrome.
Really happy firefox is alive and well.
I'm almost certain that a Facebook browser would end up being Chromium with tight Facebook integration and extra-invasive data collection.
If Microsoft made the decision that it was too much work to maintain an independent browser engine and they already had one, I find it highly unlikely that Facebook would come to a different decision, given they're starting even farther behind.
I'm not sure they'd see desktop browser warnings as much of an existential threat considering 94% of their advertising revenue comes from mobile [1].
[1] https://s21.q4cdn.com/399680738/files/doc_financials/2019/Q2...
Education is a good idea but in reality every site with google analytics is invading your personal data and people don't really care.
What about mobile apps? Gotta get OS makers in that too. Put Google and Apple and all the Android variations there.
Plus there’s FB own devices, like Portal and HTC First.
Perhaps I'd tolerate it as an opt-in, but even then, I'd be leary and start looking to switch because I think it's a bad precident to set, and (slippery slope warning) could go toward normalizing similar warnings for other issues.
If there's going to be a warning, I think it ought to be produced server-side.
I’m sure this case is commonly known but I’ll spell it out as I understand it briefly: the bar for “cause cancer” is apparently low and wide enough to mean a huge number of products have this warning, diluting the spirit of the warning. Cynics and critics suggest this over-labeling is a deliberate attempt to undermine the warning itself through over saturation.
In your Facebook example, this could end up meaning any site with user generated content and comments would have to carry the warning — including Hacker News.
I mean just look at the suggested box design here: https://www.fda.gov/tobacco-products/labeling-and-warning-st...
I mean really look at that, and fully take in the notion that our government required that. That, that takes balls.
https://ash.org.uk/category/information-and-resources/packag...
Its hard to relate cause and effects, but I see a noticeable decline in smoking among younger people, and smoking has become very uncool. People will also make a big deal about second hand smoke, for instance if you're near a bus stop or busy sidewalk you may get called out.
I don't know if anything besides medical intervention can stop a seasoned veteran smoker, though. Packaging certainly hasn't had any effect on my few family members that smoke.
[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/08/cdc-says-smoking-rates-fall-...
Smoking has just generally fallen by the way side worldwide.
I don't think that Facebook offers anything comparable.
To anyone looking at us pre reddit/digg many of us would look "addicted" to HN based on our usage of it.
It's less about having a good product or making a worse product, and more about the moral and ethical responsibility to consider what that addicting product's end result will be.
I defend big tech all the time (see my post history), but saying FB isn’t designed to be addictive isn’t accurate.
https://www.glassdoor.com/Jobs/Facebook-psychology-Jobs-EI_I...
Same as windows - you just force them to have an anti-monopoly function.
Alternatively, allow for other ad suppliers to work through their network with a minimal amount of friction. Then you annihilate their revenue.
Allowing tons of third parties to access all your data. That’s for sure going to solve all the problems (and Facebook had same idea few years ago, that brought you Cambridge Analytica scandal)
The problem with Analytica is it was done without your knowledge as a user. If you had volunteered to share tour data with CA how is that is that different from sharing it with Google or Instagram or any other service? We pick services to use in exchange for data everyday.
Why is it different if Facebook has access to your data from any other service? You just pick one.
Anyway this is the only solution and it will eventually be implemented. Either that or the Warren plan.
User A uses app X and shares data with user B. User B uses app Y. App Y is scraping data. They now have data of both user B (which expressed consent) and user A (which didn’t). It’s exactly like Cambridge Analitica.
Can you post a link to RCT-based evidence backing this claim? I don't see anything on CDC website or any professional medical organization about Facebook being as harmful as cigarettes.
Vaping was useful to move remaining smokers to different nicotine delivery mechanisms.
I don't mind that the modern bright bars exist, I just wish that I could have an old snug with a pint of bitter and smoke a pipe or cigar.
The single most important thing they did to turn the tide against smoking, to create a strong disincentive, was to make it a lot more expensive of a habit. Cigarettes used to be inexpensive when I was growing up in the 1980s. Now you'll nearly spend a car payment on just a pack per day. Chain smoker? There went your rent for the month.
Chinese men are the most voracious smokers in human history, they consume nearly half of all cigarettes smoked on the planet. They don't know cigarettes are bad for them? Of course they do. The imagery would make little difference unto itself. Smoking hasn't been made wildly expensive in China yet, that's the single biggest issue. It's also not enough of a socially excluding behavior yet in China; the party could take care of that if they wanted to (they will eventually, it will be a health & social wellness thing they aggressively focus on in the future; they allow it for now, for obvious reasons, as a placative).
The second most important thing authorities did to curb smoking, was the imagery & information campaign. That has been quite successful, it's distinctly branded as an ugly, nasty, killer, social excluding taboo habit now.
The third most important thing the authorities did, is push regulations such that smokers became quasi socially excluded and couldn't easily smoke anywhere considered a public space and at work. They added friction to the smoking process, making it a far bigger hassle.
The recipe was: much higher cost, persistent information campaign, added friction, social exclusion.
Marijuana use has become more socially acceptable and the number of people who want it legal has increased.
Just as an aside, the number of people who smoke weed regularly is about the same as people who smoke cigarettes.
http://pics.mcclatchyinteractive.com/news/nation-world/natio...
One of the core propositions of cigarettes was always that they were legal. They catered to both the rule breaker and (substantially bigger) rule follower markets.
So it seems apples and oranges with regards to imagery / warning effectiveness due to the only partially overlapping consumers.
https://priceonomics.com/did-prohibition-reduce-drinking/
-increase in organized crime
- increase in incarceration rates.
But guess who gets incarcerated more because of the “war on drugs” and guess what happens when it starts affecting the suburbs? It’s then treated like “a disease”.
Tell me again why I want to give the government more power?
And when it started to rise generations were already addicted and simply a new generation needed to rise and slowly overcome it.
So rather .. a mix of it all? Because even though tobacco is expensive today, that doesn't stop the smokers from smoking. And people have lots of other expensive habits, so money is only a small part of it I believe.
There's plenty stories online about people who have, multiple times, tried to quit smoking and didn't manage it. But they had no issues switching to e-cigs, and then a few months down the line were able to stop using e-cigs - without any urges to return to any kind of smoking.
20 years later, governments mandated superliminal death symbolism.
Music, Prestige and Reality TV, Cable News, Comic books - all are "specifically designed to cause behavioral addiction" if your only criteria is "attempts to attract and keep people on the platform"...