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I quit 8 years ago after 25 years of a pack a day, yes my lungs are better, so is my sense of smell and taste. Unfortunately my heart and teeth won't magically repair themselves, neither will the scars on my legs from poor circulation due to my hardened arteries.

Worst of all might be the fact that my bank account will never be what it could gave been if only I didn't start, get addicted then squander the thousands of dollars a year on something that was killing me for over two decades.

Aint life funny that way? Nope, nothing funny about it, just regret, remorse and sadness.

If you don't smoke, please don't start it truly is self imposed misery.

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I wish young people, under 25 or so, could live a couple of days in your shoes or my moms shoes. She was an alcoholic with a pack a day habit for 20+ years. She isn’t 60 yet and she has a litany of health issues: degenerative disk disease, hardened arteries (can barely walk), heart disease, chronic nerve pain, many secondary issues from there. No exercise and a poor diet, depression, etc. it seems so innocent like you have forever ahead of you. Then 5, 10, 20 years roll by and your body is fucked. It’s so hard to think just one cigarette, one drink, or one hit of a drug can ruin you, but for some people that is all it takes. Young minds just don’t have the tools to weigh the opportunity cost. I am not saying it should be illegal or anything (the opposite), but it really sucks and there are plenty of regrettable stories like yours and my mothers.

> It’s so hard to think just one cigarette, one drink, or one hit of a drug can ruin you, but for some people that is all it takes.

I was taught this growing up, but I don't really believe it anymore. Nobody is addicted to drugs or alcohol or cigarettes just from one use. The people who become addicted are the ones who are using it to escape their lives, and continue to use the drug for the same reason they used it in the first place. After a while of this continued use, then they might become addicted. But the significant factor is their environment and mental state, not that they decided to try something once.

It's more like that one cigarette represents opening the door to the addiction within the context of your day to day life. Almost everyone I know who smokes does it first in a certain context and then it eventually persists through the rest of life due to the cravings.

They started smoking when working at the mines, on boats, or when they worked hospitality, or when they hang out with a certain friendship group. Saying yes that first time, allows it to begin and develop. Because you're often in that context due to work/life you will come up against that decision point again and again, quickly becoming addicted through repetition. But what keeps you there for life is the craving for nicotine.

So abstinence is a worthwhile goal still, and especially if the opportunity to smoke comes up at somewhere you'll be regularly.

Starting smoking while in an environment with smokers helps you socialize and be part of an ingroup.

When you leave that context, all you've got left is a costly habit that's a pain to quit.

But, not saying yes at that point might have cost you some chances to socialize and create some bonds with other smokers.

And you can still find places where being a smoker will help you socialize. Ex: in places where smoking is banned in bars, going out for a smoke is a pretty good way to start up a conversation with a perfect stranger.

> Starting smoking while in an environment with smokers helps you socialize and be part of an ingroup.

Some coworkers at my old work quit smoking and also had to give up coffee. The connection was so strong they couldn't have one without the other. And the socializing out back in the smoking area was also a big part of it.

It also can cause friction at work. I've worked with smokers who are practically bouncing with energy. But they were crabby and combative when their nicotine levels were low. Then ten minutes later back to bouncy and cheery, it was exhausting to be around. I also estimated the 10 or 15 minute smoke breaks meant that my coworker made $5/hour more than me when were actually paid the same rate. He was adamant they were not breaks it was just a "quick smoke" but he was gone for 10 or 15 minutes every hour.

>I also estimated the 10 or 15 minute smoke breaks meant that my coworker made $5/hour more than me when were actually paid the same rate. He was adamant they were not breaks it was just a "quick smoke" but he was gone for 10 or 15 minutes every hour

That doesn't sound right; the pattern I've generally seen for pack(s)-a-day people is they take similar smoke breaks as pack-a-week people -- something like once every few hours. But they'll smoke multiple cigarettes in that break. This would also make sense if you imagine nicotine decrease rate as constant, but number of cigarettes required to hit "satisfied" as steadily-increasing, though I don't know if that's the case.

Additionally, IME, smoking or not, I've noticed that most people follow the pattern of

1. Do a decent chunk of work for a few hours 2. Dick around for 20 minutes, especially if they just finished something notable

where that 20 minutes get spent on coffee breaks, smoke breaks, chatting around, etc.

Most of the "hard workers" spend more total hours, not more continuous hours, as far as I've seen. Of course, intentional abuse of the break is another matter, but that's independent of smoking

I have had less than 1 pack of cigarettes in my life, none in the past decade, and yet I still get cravings.

By comparison 3 heavily medicated days in the hospital plus 1 week on heavy Opiods and 2 weeks light Opiods and that’s a vastly lesser craving. So, no addiction is not really just about long term exposure.

PS: Addiction is also not simply a habit, though habits make addiction harder to deal with.

Nicotine is different, it's arguably the most addictive drug and is incredibly hard to kick. No one should ever try nicotine, even if plenty of people, myself included, have tried and gotten out unscathed. The fact is trying nicotine is a really bad risk, if you do get hooked it's a massive burden. Alcohol or weed or caffeine, some of the other most common drugs, are all less deadly and less addictive

That's incredibly wrong. You don't see people ruining their lives from nicotine consumption through snus, chewing gum and non-adulterated vaping (smoking≠nicotine consumption), but plenty of people ruin their lives and the lives around them due to alcohol.

Nicotine can be just as harmless as caffeine. Personally I don't find nicotine very addictive at all, but even if it were super addictive it's all about how you consume it. [1] Nobody cares about how many people are addicted to caffeine, because the main consumption method of caffeine is pretty safe (coffee).

Caffeine is actually mixed with meth in ya ba (popular in Thailand) [2], but that doesn't mean that caffeine ruins lives. When you say that nicotine is deadly you're conflating the drug with something completely separate. It's sort of like saying that air is deadly, because it could kill you if you inject a lot of it into your veins.

[1] https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ya_ba

I'm so thankful I quit smoking and switched to snus. The health risks are substantially more tolerable for me. I could smoke an entire pack of cigarettes in a single day for a cost of $6. I use maybe half of a package of snus every day and it costs me $3.

At this point I'm just happy I can breathe properly.

This is highly individualistic.

I can smoke a cigarette or cigar socially, periodically, have done so for years, and never experience a craving. However, alcohol calls to me like Odysseus's sirens.

I have friends who are precisely the opposite: hopelessly jonesing for cigarettes, but have no problem grabbing a few beers a month with friends.

This is not merely anecdata - individual susceptibility has been documented in the literature, as well.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/10/171010124112.h...

I quit smoking 20 years ago and i still get nic fits when people light up around me. its crazy addictive and takes will-power to quit.

my friend is trying to quit and i hope he does , his health is sub-par.

This is true. But most of us are not fully aware of the vulnerabilities in our own mental state. Nearly everyone is walking through life with some issue, hurt, scar, and many have trauma that is not fully understood.

In that context, certain things that may seem benign to try can easily progress into a stronger habit, then a dependency and pave the way to a real addiction.

> It’s so hard to think just one cigarette, one drink, or one hit of a drug can ruin you

This sort of drug education is actively harmful for exactly the reason that you mention: For most people it does not work that way and when people encounter things that they thought are true and that turned out to be lies, trust in whatever else you told them is going to evaporate.

My Mum smoked a pack a day for 30 years, quit when she was about 50, and passed away a year ago from Lung Cancer at the age of 67.

The kicker with lung cancer is that it doesn't really have any symptoms, and most people don't know they've got it until the cancer has metastasized and shows up somewhere else. That's more-or-less a death sentence.

Please do yourself a favor and get tested every ~6 months. (I know there are a lot of people that say false positives do more harm than good, and I still believe you're better to get tested if you smoked a pack a day for >10 years)

What is the basis of this recommendation? I appreciate the desire to catch lung cancer early, but I dont think your suggestion is particularly based on evidence.

I am by no means a lung cancer expert, but currently there is contention about whether lung cancer screening in smokers is worthwhile, and I doubt at 6 monthly intervals. Some studies have shown benefits from screening for smokers, but I dont think any high quality evidence exist which shows a clear benefit of screening. There are options for screening, chest xray, CT chest. A CT chest is more sensitive than a chest xray but doing it every 6 months is going to cause much more harm than good.

My more general point is that these are recommendations which need to be evidence based, and doing more harm than good through false positives, excess radiation exposure, etc is a real risk. I dont think its helpful to make suggestions that are not based on evidence.

Frequent screening reduces mortality due to lung cancer by 24%: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1911793

Interesting find! I have had a quick skim. Couple of quick points:

a) it was published yesterday, which means there is insufficient time to have a good critical appraisal.

b) looking at the confidence intervals, although there is significance in men, there is not one in men, and the confidence interval is quite wide

c) all cause mortality is similar in both groups despite screening

d) the follow up is only 10 years after first CT. the effect of radiation from these multiple CTs is unlikely to have reached maximum effect in damage to tissues/new neoplasms. This may also explain the increased non lung cancer mortality.

e) no mention is made of morbidity (although I might have missed it) which is a huge importance.

Overall, it’s unsurprising that in a group screened regularly for lung cancer that lung cancer incidence increases but mortality drops. The problem is the other effects of screening which this paper doesn’t seem to focus on. I don’t think this actually shows screening is particularly worth it especially given it’s caveats.

Thanks! I really like this critical analysis. Tbh, I didn’t read the article but it was on the Dutch news this morning.

Thank you.

A friend's mom went to see her doctor complaining of back pain, only to find it was a lung cancer tumor pressing on her back. She died a month later.

Not to undermine your point, just an opposite case. My mother is 70, smoked a packet a day for about 40 tears, last 10 years about 7 or 8 a day and she is healthy as a horse. Last check ups 4 months ago. It really all depends.

Honestly, your mom is just enjoying exceptional genes or something.

that is because the residual carcinogens remain even if lung functionality returns to normal and the lungs appear normal. Very similar to asbestos cancer that occurs decades after exposure in otherwise healthy individuals.

Here is a rabbit hole regarding tobacco which I still don’t fully comprehend:

> Waking a Sleeping Giant: The Tobacco Industry’s Response to the Polonium-210 Issue https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2509609/

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=japan+lung+cancer+paradox!g

What is actually going on here?

Wait, so is it in iqos and heated tobacco too? That would be huge. What about in Vapes made from tobacco?

Anything made from natural sources will be contaminated to some degree. The only thing that should be (relatively) clean is fully synthetic vape stuff.

Man, that's trippy.

"lower levels of carcinogenic ingredients in Japanese cigarettes"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18420238

I get Fallout vibes here.

I'd consider glowing cigarettes, tbh

Plus that VATS bonus

I smoked when drinking (maybe 2-3 packs/week) throughout my 20s and if smoking wasn't a death wish I still would. I enjoyed smoking and I enjoyed the camaraderie of those who would escape outside the party or pub to escape the noise and have a chat and a smoke.

It's been a long time since I've smoked. I've lost people close to me and will soon lose another due to lung cancer or emphysema. Smoking sucks, but I do miss those quite moments outside in the cool air with a cigarette.

You dont have to miss those moments. Just join them, without the cigarette. In my experience noone cares if you dont smoke.

Never smoked. The walk to a Melbourne CBD coffee place seems to have the same function of socialising with colleagues. It's definitely something we look forward to, and we have some seriously good coffee places as well.

It's a shame we have to walk past / through so many people smoking on the sidewalk though. It really is quite a disgusting habit.

Second hand smoke is still pretty grim!

Not really, no.

If you work in a smoke-filled bar for 20 years or something, second-hand smoke is probably bad for you although the evidence for even that is much weaker than originally claimed.

Second-hand smoke outdoors in open air has very little in evidence to support claims that it's going to do much to you.

https://slate.com/technology/2017/02/secondhand-smoke-isnt-a...

Yea but if you've ever been a regular smoker then successfully quit, the smell is infuriating because 1) it smells SO disgusting unless it's something like pipe tobacco or American Spirits 2) the temptation to have one, while brief, is strong

1 and 2 combine for a moment of micro-anger

Whether or not second-hand smoke is carcinogenic or otherwise detrimental, the smell alone should force a public ban.

Or my solution: let businesses determine whether or not they want to allow smoking and for the most part the non-smokers will self-segregate to the non-smoking establishments just to avoid smelling like a cancerous ashtray.

I feel the same about perfumes. And some noise pollution.

Yeah, I'm a frequent "step outside for some air" guy during gatherings and I like stepping out to talk with the smokers!

At the time they did feel very much linked. You are right though, of course. I’m too old for any of that nonsense now anyway :)

But the temptation to just bum a cigarette from someone is incredible, trust me.

That temptation subsides with time. I wouldnt recommend it to someone who just quit, but I havent bummed a cigarette yet (also ex smoker, quit 4-5 years ago)

I also smoked for about eight years, quit several years back now. the funny thing is I just can't stand the smell of cigarette smoke now, it seems even worse than before I started.

same here. smoking gives such a jolt of stimulation that you cannot get elsewhere, for that moment of smoking all your troubles are lifted, except you are slowly killing yourself too. The instant delivery of nicotine via smoking is why it does that. There is no other way to replicate it and is why it is so addicting.

I wonder if it couldn't be replaced by proper vaping. Sharing a non toxic thing to inhale on the side.

There with you, 17 years - , clean for 1.5 years.

I tried to switch to vaping high nic (20mg liquid) - i think i may have scarring on my wind pipe (my throat still hurts from vaping that high nic, and breathing is still sometimes painful, which is pretty bad news)

Lungs do recover, but dont count on it. Quit today, and take it seriously.

Watch thank you for smoking, its great for stopping.

Any interest in taking up swimming?

One of my friends from decades ago had asthma right through his teenage years, and was extremely thin and weedy. Couldn't exercise much without coughing fits and similar.

He took up swimming (!), and although it was slow going at first he eventually developed good lung capacity. And became a body builder. :)

Suspecting the same thing would work for anyone with not much (or damaged) lung capacity.

I have back issues too. I should really take up swimming. Thank you for suggesting that.

Vaping + BJJ helped me finally stop. I finally stopped vaping after a few months when I realized I was hitting a plateau with conditioning for BJJ.

I smoked for 23 years and was diagnosed with COPD at about year 17. I still have serious lung issues but they do get better, slowly. Also I want to say that my body has adapted to function better in lower oxygen availability environment - as long as I don't burst cardio over a level I'm not accustomed to, I can keep it up for hours esp. endurance

I wish you great strength and recovery man.

Becareful with high nic. Dad started getting high blood pressure from vaping 24mg for 2-4 years. He's lowered it to 6-12mg solutions and have gotten better. His previous habit was about 2 packs a week, and in high stress situations a pack a day.

24mg is so high, i started with 6mg and then went to 3mg. For me the whole point is to smoke the least amount of nicotine and try to keep it healthy (will try quitting soon as well).

Yeah... its even corrosive. And its a pretty messed up nerve toxin.

I smoked for 24 years from 14 and up an average of half a pack a day. I switched to e-cigarettes so I haven't touched a cigarette in more than 2 years and probably never will. Aside from tooth stains that seem to go away I never had any of the problems you had. I am a bit over 40 years old.

I don't stink like an ashtray and the smell of other smokers turns my stomach upside down and yet I am still under the spell of nicotine via ... e-cigs. Should I force myself to quit? Again, I haven't experienced any of the symptoms you describe above and smoked for a nearly the same period albeit just half a pack a day...

Whatever else may be in various vape juices, nicotine itself is about as harmful as caffeine. A mild stimulant, addictive, (as far as we know) harmless in normal doses, and will kill you instantly if you get a few grams at once. IIRC caffeine isn't a good pesticide tho, whereas nicotine is great, so YMMV if you're an aphid.

Nicotine alone increases chances for diabetes, and in mice, it produces inflammation of the pancreas even after quitting.

Nicotine alone is probably better than tobacco, but by how much, we are not sure.

Nicotine alone fucks with my hand joints -- whenever I go back to NTR my hand joints, my thumb joints hurt like hell; it takes about two- three months after I completely quit nicotine for the pain to subside.

Caffeine works great on many mammals though, which is how you end up with your dog in the ER if you aren’t good at keeping things like chocolate or coffee beans out of reach.

Humans are just exceptionally good at metabolizing both.

Nicotine is one of the most addictive substances we know.

The mystery additives in cigarettes are far more addictive than the nicotine.

What is mysterious about them? We've known they're things like formaldehyde, flavorings, and additives to help keep them from burning out of control (and thus starting fires).

Source?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nutt

Every one is different, and you did less damage thankfully. Now you’ve made a significant change for the better. Why not continue on that path by slowly weaning yourself off it? Besides the health angle it’s merely a waste of money and support of a shady industry. Take those funds and perhaps treat yourself to something positive.

I was completely addicted to nicotine, and e-cigs couldn’t reproduce the hit from smoked ones.

After faffing two years with patches and liquids I took the Varenicline route... it was supposed to last 10 days and i stayed on it one full month but eventually I literally forgot to light up.

It works

at least ecigs worked for you. won't work for for others. depends on how one responds to the delivery method.

I’m reading Tig Notaro’s autobiographical book and at one point she’s demonstrating how well young her was doing out on her own by listing her budget.

Her cigarette budget was 80% of her pretty frugal food budget. If she hadn’t been smoking she wouldn’t have had to put so much time and effort into managing her food budget.

I wonder how much and how many ways our situation would have been better when I was a kid if my dad hadn’t smoked the entire time. Fucker used to hotbox us in the winter, too.

I will frame this and put it on my kids bedroom wall. No one should get addicted to smoking and the youngest minds are the most gullible.

They will get some other addiction

It's in the human nature, instead of fighting it it's better educate people to not abuse of anything

> If you don't smoke, please don't start it truly is self imposed misery.

Playing devil's advocate, I'd say that the misery is not the smoking, but the excess smoking. Everything in excess begets misery.

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