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Comment by sushisource | Hacker News Reader

I remember being in an airport and having a woman I was sitting next to openly admit to me that her dog she was bringing on the plane she had "just went online an registered as an emotional support animal so I can take him with me". Clearly implying she did not, in fact, require an ESA.

I just remember being so blown away that she assumed a stranger would be 100% on board with this tactic as to tell me about it unvarnished that I was stunned into silence.

I love dogs, but you're ruining everything for the people who actually need service animals.

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An ESA is not a service animal and there is no registry. There are just a bunch of idiots and/or scumbags who register their animal for a piece of paper that they think is a golden ticket for their pets. In a few very limited circumstances an ESA is allowed in places that “just a pet” is not, but AFAIAA this is not enshrined in law, just something some places do that aren’t otherwise legally prohibited from allowing animals and the only place I know for sure requires a note from a mental health professional.

There is also no registry for service animals, but there are companies that train those animals and they can be queried about training and legitimacy.

Next time someone says they have a service animal, ask them what service it performs. If they don’t have a ready response, they’re full of it. And if their animal isn’t well behaved, they’re also full of it.

My dog is a retired service animal. She performed seizure alert and response. She could (and probably still can) save a life. If she was on your flight you’d only know if you happened to see her. And frankly the other passengers would be more of a problem for her than she would be to anyone.

ESAs and liars create a lot of problems for legitimate service animals. I won’t point out any specific posts but there’s an incredible amount of ignorance in these threads and I’d bet it’s all due to negative experiences with people who don’t have service animals.

Service animals save lives. The people who need them really need them. Lying about a service animal is like lying about needing a wheelchair. Complaining about them is like complaining about a wheelchair blocking the aisle.

These animals are no joke. They’re extremely heavily trained. Many animals don’t make it through these programs. Some of them are worth more than your car.

Adding on: training a service animal costs hundreds to thousands of dollars. It's poetically not something you do so you can bring your dog on a flight with you.

Add to that: I'm allergic to dogs. Depending on the dog it may be hardly a problem or maybe a minor inconvenience, but other times it can turn into hours of misery.

And all because of an asshole who's too cheap to cough up 100$ for the proper transportation of his "support" animal.

Just FYI, the "proper transportation" is the exact same thing, you just pay the airline $100 (in Delta's case, $150 per way) for the pleasure. They still go in the cabin with you, you still have all the same issues, they just want to skim some extra cash out of you.

It wouldn't be nearly as irritating that they charge for it if there were something they were actually providing (like a more pet-friendly place to ride), but they don't.

> Just FYI, the "proper transportation" is the exact same thing

It's not. Dogs have to travel in their kennel under the seat, which is significantly more stressful for small dogs than on your lap, speaking as someone who travels with an actual ESA

> If they don’t have a ready response, they’re full of it.

You're missing the point of it being an emotional support animal-- the go-to response is usually something related to mental health that cannot be validated or disproven by the questioner.

No, I’m not. An ESA is not a service animal and does not perform a service. If someone specifically claims to have a service animal they can be legally asked what services the animal performs. If someone claims “emotional support” or “mental support” or any other such claim, it is not a service animal. It might be an ESA but those do not have the same legal protections/rights.

Probably being downvoted because it's just anecdote, but I've had at least two friends who shamelessly did the same thing with their dogs. I doubt this is uncommon given how easy the loophole is to exploit.

I can't imagine it's uncommon at all. It runs from people just buying harnesses/vests for their animal that says "Service Animal", to people who have a friend who is a doctor (not even a psychologist or related field) who will write them a doctor's note proclaiming their animal a service animal. I know both of these types of people, and I know they've brought their dogs on planes based on this.

It's disgusting and makes me uncomfortable whenever I'm at an establishment with them that usually doesn't allow pets.

I would imagine in the latter case that the doctor would not be pleased to hear that their friend told you this story, as something like that could be grounds for disciplinary action on their license. Totally unacceptable to sign false documentation and seriously calls into question their professional integrity.

> I doubt this is uncommon

I've never seen any animal in an aircraft cabin, and I fly a fair bit. How does it work even when it is completely legitimate? Do you just ask the animal politely not to go to the toilet for 12 hours or however long? What if they have an accident? How on earth do you clean that up and deal the smell in a cramped space?

Genuine service animals are extremely well behaved. The training is no joke, and a large fraction of the animals fail out. It’s likely that you’ve been on a plane with a service animal and not noticed. Service animals can contentedly sit or lie down silently for hours without attracting attention. They know when they are on the job and they behave accordingly.

As for very long flights, I imagine that a service dog can do its business in a small bag or box. Also, a well trained animal will pee or poop on command before a flight and can go for quite a while without peeing or pooping.

It could make sense to require accredited training programs for service animals. Poorly behaved “service” animals are a problem for those who need real service animals.

In the particular case of guide dogs fir the blind, having the dog poop on command is also what lets the owner know where the poop is, so it can be properly disposed of.

I believe service animal training is already accredited. The issue here is that businesses are in the habit of trusting the "Service Animal" labeling and not checking if it's genuine or someone's ESA.

There are three things you can ask under ADA (which does not allow ESA, and appears to be what you are talking about, FHA and ACAA have different rules):

0. Is this a dog or miniature horse? (only those animals are considered as potential service animals under ADA)

1. Is this a service dog within the definition of the ADA, i.e. has it been trained to perform a specific tasks to mitigate a disability? (cannot ask what the disability is)

2. What specific tasks is it trained to perform? (ex. seizure response, seeing eye, etc.)

However, there is no way for you to "check" if this is true. Service animals need not be trained by any approved company or carry any identification, and you cannot ask about this. The only way out is if someone admits to it not meeting the legal definition or gets caught in a lie while answering these questions.

If, after all that, the animal cannot be reasonably accommodated as it is not being housebroken, being vicious or harmful, damaging property, or making an unreasonable and excessive amount of noise, it can still get shown the door. Likewise, if allowing an animal is inappropriate under any circumstance for safety or regulatory reasons (ex. cleanroom, food service, nuclear exposure, hearing damage potential, etc), you need not allow it. The establishment owner is never responsible for feeding or looking after the dog or procuring one for the person with disabilities. You can expect that service animals be kept on lease unless brief exceptions are critical to job function.

There's no accreditation for service animals. The Americans with Disabilities Act does not require that a service dog be professionally trained or certified, you can even train a dog yourself and (legally) call it a service animal. It's a wild west and some people end up paying thousands of dollars for dogs that aren't even socialized or house trained.

https://nypost.com/2019/05/03/lawless-world-of-service-dogs-...

Even the federal government gets ripped off

http://archive.is/k2JQk

>The legislation appeared to be a victory for service-dog advocates, but the study almost immediately encountered problems. The V.A. initially partnered with vendors whose poorly trained animals introduced unexpected complications. ... “We relied upon the organizations themselves, all of which professed to be very experienced and to be able to produce high-quality dogs, and unfortunately that did not turn out to be true,” Fallon told lawmakers in a 2016 congressional hearing. “We were not familiar enough with the service-dog community when we embarked on the pilot study. There’s no question that we’ve made mistakes

there are some reputable training schools (like guide dogs for the blind and canine companions for independence), but there is no real accreditation. there's maybe organizations like assistance dogs international, that hold member schools to standards, but not much beyond that.

the ada explicitly doesn't allow any kind of request for documentation or certification either. basically you just have to take people at face value when you ask them if the animal is required because of a disability. and lots of people with ESAs are okay being very casual about that.

(and the reason i can figure out why people with ESAs are okay with bending the truth compared to a trained service animal, is because they tend to be the ones that are VERY upset in two situations that are legal: the one where i negotiate different accommodations because i'm very allergic to dog dander, and the one where they get upset that a misbehaving ESA is being asked to leave the premises. having been around dozens of trained service animals - i've never seen one misbehave the way ESAs can, and everyone is happy with my suggestions due to my allergy since i go above and beyond, rather than making things more difficult.)

Businesses are not allowed to ask for proof if an animal is a service animal.

https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html

If someone does have some type of certification, I assume it’s they’re fraudulently claiming it’s a service animal.

There are questions that can be asked if you suspect that someone is abusing the system. THey'll only work if the person is unprepared, though:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22124349

The issue here is that businesses are in the habit of trusting the "Service Animal" labeling and not checking if it's genuine or someone's ESA.

Because they're afraid of lawsuits, or worse — being tarred and feathered on social media.

Yet another part of society that social media has made worse.

See the other 5 replies with links to ADA website showing its federal law to not be able to require proof of service animal.

I looked into this last year and found no federally recognized accreditation of service animals. The ADA prohibits discrimination against them, which in turn creates a potential legal liability for businesses who deny them, whatever them is...

Your not allowed to ask for documentation: https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html

I used to fly with my dog occasionally, and I followed all the rules: 1) Required to bring a recent veterinary certificate of health 2) Pay $75-125 to bring the animal on. 3) Demonstrate the animal weighs less then 20 lbs. 4) Demonstrate the animal can fit in a soft sided crate that fits underneath an aircraft seat 5) give up having a personal item 6) keep the animal crated underneath the seat in front of you.

My dog never did his business on a flight (we never flew more than 6h and he was used to staying home way longer then that), but I had baggies ready to go.

How does it work even when it is completely legitimate

I've done it with cats. They were required by the airline to have a health certificate from a vet stating that they were healthy enough to fly, to be kept in their container at all times, and I had to pay a fee. I think it was $200 last time.

The vet also supplies tranquilizers to give the animal just before the flight. That keeps it calm and helps prevent it from needing to use the litter box.

Coast-to-coast isn't a problem. 12 hours? Animals shouldn't fly intercontinental. There's simply no reason for it.

At one time you could mail a cat. I mailed one from Charleston to New York using Delta's package service. The fee was less because it went into the cargo hold, but it still needed documentation from the vet. I don't know if that's still allowed.

> The fee was less because it went into the cargo hold

This kills pets all the time due to low temperature. Source: friend who used to work for the airlines.

There was a high-profile incident a few years ago where a contender for "world's largest rabbit" died in the cargo hold. Happens to stowaways too.

As much of an annoyance as animals in the cabin are, the cargo hold is not conducive to supporting mammalian life.

Could you put them in a special temperature-regulating box? But that would be bulky and perhaps cruel…

I'd never put my dog in a cargo hold, hence he will probably never fly. What if airlines offered flights for dog owners only, or people who would tolerate dogs? I'd gladly pay 2x to 3x to fly with my dog.

> "Animals shouldn't fly intercontinental. There's simply no reason for it."

People travel and move with their pets all the time. There are procedures for transporting them, including flying separately on cargo flights.

i was once delayed because a dog on the arriving plane made such a mess that they needed to clean three rows of seats. they had to bring in a new plane for us because that one required specialized cleaning. “there was shit everywhere” kind of thing.

i can’t look at dogs on plane the same way after that. must have been terrifying for the dog, and disgusting for the people.

ps - i’ve seen a toddler with poop riding up his back on a plane, too. mom had her hands full with three kids! ive been an obsessed loving dog owner myself, but i don’t like how people try to compare dogs to babies and toddlers. i think it’s demeaning to the “small person”.

I'm reminded of a recent flight I took where I was in the last seat of first class (yay upgrade!) and, right behind me, in the bulkhead economy seat, there was a not-small, long-haired dog (40-50 lbs maybe?) just lying on the floor in front of the owner's seat, not restrained in any way.

It wasn't an excessively long flight (~5 hours), but still, not sure how they could ensure the dog wouldn't need to go to the bathroom in that time.

I'm mildly allergic... it was not a pleasant flight for me at all.

> It wasn't an excessively long flight (~5 hours), but still, not sure how they could ensure the dog wouldn't need to go to the bathroom in that time.

You have the dog do its business beforehand. Same way most dogs are able to stay indoors while its owner(s) are at work for the day.

I've always been confused by this -- if you're allergic to dogs, and the flight is required to have a dog on it for whatever reason, is the airline then liable for any and all medical bills related to an allergic reaction after the flight? Are you not entitled to reasonable accommodation as well?

I'm not sure... I guess maybe it depends on how severe the allergy is and how much of an issue you make of it. For me it's not life-threatening; it just makes me uncomfortable: a little nasal congestion, and perhaps my eyes feel a little itchy. I didn't say anything on that particular flight, but perhaps if I had, they could have accommodated me somehow.

For me it's not life-threatening

Same here. It's not life threatening. But depending on the dog it can mean real misery for an extended time.

I usually have medications in my travel kit. But until a pill works it takes an hour and it can be too late.

I wouldn't complain about service animals. But scumbags, who are just too cheap to pay for proper transportation of their pet severely piss me off.

Thankfully it's not such a big issue in Europe.

I'm shocked you've never seen one. I fly pretty rarely, generally just 2 or 3 US domestic flights per year, and while I don't actually keep count, I'm relatively certain I see a small dog in a little cube-shaped bag on nearly every flight.

If they are small enough they don’t have to be service animals.

Anecdotal but I had 2 round trip flights between SFO and Logan (Thanksgiving/Christmas) and on each one there was at least one very small dog in the cabin. They were not service dogs, just people taking advantage of ESA to take their pets with them over the holidays. Unless there’s some Jet Blue thing I’m not aware of.

JetBlue allows small dogs in the cabin

It would appear so: https://mobile2.jetblue.com/travel/pets/

I think on every flight I take it's 99% business people maybe that's why.

With cats you'd take away their food and water about 8-10h before the flight. We took our cats in cabin from Sweden -> Florida, about 19h total door to door. They were real champs with no accidents. We lined the soft carriers with puppy pads (similar absorbent material as diapers) just in case.

Are you flying North American companies to/from USA and domestic? I've never seen it on a European airline. Suspect the rules are different

And no. The animal goes to the toilet as it normally would

I flew with a cat in a carrier. He was quite cooperative, but also quite happy to be free after being in a tiny, loud space for many hours.

Also some airports have animal relief areas on the airside.

My friend got her cats registered as emotional support animals to avoid the pet fee at her apartment. Turns out they can't charge you if it's 'medically necessary'.

...these are your friends?

Indeed. I love dogs too but happen to be allergic. As are a lot of us. Boggles my mind that this is just not even considered by either airlines or pet owners, when bringing them into closed-air-circulation system where we're trapped like sardines for many hours :<

I was seated next to a person with a small furry dog, who proceeded to tell me how hypoallergenic (marketing thing - no such thing) it was as I proceeded to sneeze and leek the entire flight :<

For what its worth, nothing about commercial airplanes is a "closed-air-circulation system". The air is continually refreshed from the outside at a rate of about 20 times per hour.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/34708785/ns/travel-travel_tips/t/a...

Airplanes aren’t closed-air circulation systems. Air is pulled in from the outside and heated before being injected into the cabin which releases air to the atmosphere directly through openings on the aircraft. You get more fresh are on airplane than you do in the airport you were sitting in before you boarded it.

IIRC it's 50% recycled to save money

How would that save money?

Probably the cost of heating -50°F air to cabin temperature.

Heating isn't a problem, cooling is. Most aircraft use "bleed air" from the compressor on the engine. That air is extremely hot (>150°C), so it requires a lot of cooling. Aircraft air conditioners are known as "packs" or "air-cycle machines", as they don't use any refrigerant, just compression/expansion and heat exchange with the outside air. This is also why you can smell oil and jet fuel when the engines start.

Air isn't recycled in to this system because the cabin pressure is too low, but air already inside the cabin is circulated around to avoid it stagnating.

Wouldn't that be heated with waste engine heat?

It's heated using waste heat from the engines (jet engines generate a lot of heat...)

I’m sure you could have asked to have been moved. Ironically they won’t serve peanuts if anyone is deadly allergic.

Ironically? Peanut allergies tend to be leagues worse than pet allergies, not that the latter should be discounted completely.

It's exceedingly rare for airlines to even have peanuts as an option for this reason (maybe never?). Do you remember any recent examples where they had them?

Fairly recently with southwest. Delta seems to have switched to almonds instead - which IMO are better.

You're lucky if you get any snacks though these days.

I fly relatively frequently across a wide array of airlines and even before this discussion noticed the stark absence of peanuts. I can even picture the red Southwest branded packet of pretzels as the “default classic” option. Hmm, interesting.

Edit: Can confirm, no more peanuts on Southwest either: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/09/southwest-airlines-is-gettin...

Weird, definitely got a pack of peanuts a couple months ago from SW. Wonder if they were just using up their stockpile then...

> You're lucky if you get any snacks though these days.

Or the snacks are pointless. On a recent delta flight they handed out baby carrots from a bag.

I get nuts all the time on Alaska and I think American, but perhaps no peanuts.

I love dogs, but you're ruining everything for the people who actually need service animals.

I saw a dog with one of those fake "Emotional support animal" vests on take a dump in the frozen food aisle of the supermarket. When it was done, the owner just kept on walking.

People who use animals as fashion accessories and to draw attention to themselves should be punished.

Sadly, the Starbucks near me not only allows pets in, it has a corkboard where people are encouraged to post photos of their animals in the store.

Animals defecating in supermarkets seems very different from a Starbucks allowing its customers to post pet photos in the cafe.

I’d guess this is the case for 90% of the animals on planes.

I’ll rarely see a real service dog that’s actually trained and wearing a real vest. Most are fake ESAs (fake in the sense that there’s no real regulation or standard and it’s just to give the appearance of being official or service dog like so people are afraid to deny the pet).

I think this is unethical and makes it harder for people with real service dogs, but I find a lot of dog owners get angry when I’ve mentioned this and blame the airlines for making it hard to fly with pets.

It's possible to fly with a dog under the seat that is not an ESA or a service dog. So I really doubt it's the case for 90% of the animals you see.

There's usually a limit of 20lb including the carrying case, which rules out most dogs from flying in the cabin unless they are registered as an ESA. See Mr Bentley for a good example.

You're an animal

I think the mistake we are all prone to is assuming that everyone experiences existence approximately the same way that we do.

It might not be that she was so bold as to admit her wrongdoing, but that she simply doesn't possess whatever it is that causes someone to actively analyze and predict the world around them.

I noticed this more and more, people are starting to become unable to understand that others have a different subjective experience of the world that is just as valid.

But is this a new thing?

Is theory of mind really so rare?

I've had so much trouble shipping my cat with me going places for an extended period of time during the winter. Almost everyone tells me to just register him as a service animal. Those same people would gasp in horror at the idea of pretending to be disabled for preferential treatment in any other situation.

I find this very curious, as I've traveled with a cat on coast-to-coast flights three times. All I had to do was pay a fee to the airline and provide proof of health at check-in.

I did it on Delta, Northwest (now also Delta), and United.

Which airlines are giving you problems?

My cat is too large to fit under the seat. FAA regulations no longer allow you to purchase a seat for a cat either. The only option is to put the cat in cargo. This has led to a problem almost every time I've flown. Problems I've had include:

1. It's too cold to transport the cat to cargo.

2. My flight gets rerouted, but in a way that's different from my cat's flight.

3. The health certificate must be the salmon copy, not the canary copy.

4. Here is the regulation that I found that says in the state I'm coming from, it's the canary copy that gets given to the airline. What do you mean I have to get a second health certificate from a vet in this state? I've flown multiple times and I've never had to go through this before.

5. Here is your goddamned salmon copy of the health certificate. What do you mean the letter of acclimation expired? Last week he could withstand temperatures of 35 degrees for brief periods of time, but all of a sudden this week he can't?

6. The letter of acclimation is missing, or incorrect, or I forgot it and the vet says she'll fax a new one to the office, but then half an hour later it still isn't there and I missed the flight cutoff.

7. A change in flights means the health certificate is no longer valid and I have to get another one.

8. Cargo is closed at that time. Their system shouldn't have even let me book that flight. Nobody is sure how this even possible.

Mostly it's just the first one, but this means sometimes I have to repeatedly cancel and rebook my flight which is expensive and annoying.

How often do you fly with your cat?

Thanksgiving and Christmas every year for a week+ each.

I also know several people that have bragged about printing out a internet fill in the blanks certificate claiming that their pet is a registered emotional support service animal, which they then of course use to bully the airlines into letting their pet ride in the cabin.

I also have completely had it with the large numbers of people I see at a nearby supermarket who walk their dogs, meet other dogs, treat the store as a dog park, and even let their dogs ride in the shopping carts with the food. It needs to stop. Have talked to the store manager who is sympathetic but says that all these people have certificates claiming the animal is a service animal and they are thus legally required to allow the animals in.

How long ago was that? Rules have changed a lot in the last 1-2 years, and "registering online" doesn't really cut it anymore.

These days, traveling with an ESA is much harder. You need to actually submit a form signed by your doctor / psychologist / therapist to the airlines 48 hours prior to departure to register the animal on the flight.

This tactic is extremely common among our tenants. No one has pets anymore, they are all emotional support animals.

She didn't care about telling you because you didn't do anything about it, and she knew you wouldn't. People are starting to realize that everyone else is so caught up in their own crap they will never take the time to concern themselves with someone else's.

> I just remember being so blown away that she assumed a stranger would be 100% on board with this tactic as to tell me about it unvarnished that I was stunned into silence.

It doesn't matter if you're on board with this tactic or not. What are you going to do? Tell the flight attendant? Will they believe you, or her? Do you think they will want to adjudicate a 'he said she said', when the consequences of adjudicating wrongly might be 'we harassed a person who has a legitimate service animal'? [1]

Are they going to throw the person in question off the plane, with a parachute? Ban them from flying with that airline? Sue them for tricking the airline?

Will taking any of these actions make the flight attendant's life easier?

The person who told you probably expected there to not be any consequences, even if you rat them out, and they are probably correct.

[1] The ADA loves these kinds of situations. I would be shocked if airlines didn't train their staff to uncritically accept claims that a dog is a service animal. The cost of accepting a dog on board are low. The cost of telling a person with a disability to go pound sand can be a six-figure lawsuit.

There's a big sign newly appeared in the local supermarket that says service animals are welcome, but pretend service animals will get a large fine.

How are they going to know, though?

It doesn't say how, but says there's a $500 fine and lists RCW 49.60.040 as the law.

It’s odd that people feel proud of successfully lying about being handicapped to obtain special privileges.

Yep, I’ve had many people at the dog park talk about this like it’s just “the way you travel with your dog”.

I'm not opposed to service animals in any way, but this is purely a money grab:

> Spirit Airlines Inc told regulators it lost “millions of dollars in pet carriage fees from passengers fraudulently claiming their ‘house pets are service or support animals.’”

They just want the pet fee to let an animal in a carrier replace the normal underseat luggage.

I'm not sure what the fee is for Spirit Airlines, but for United Airlines it is $125 each direction.

$125 is steep, but if you have a dog that sheds, it's hard to argue it wouldn't be harder to clean up all that hair versus cleaning up after your average passenger.

You're required to keep the dog in the bag under the seat for the entire flight so they shouldn't really affect cleaning.

I have two issues with the fee.

1) It only covers one way. For a round trip itinerary you are looking at $250 - $400 for the pet fee. That can be more expensive than the actual ticket.

2) Your pet counts as your carry on item. I would be a little less bothered if the dog was allowed in addition to your carry on and personal items or if the airline included a free checked bag with the fee to offset the carry on. Since the dog counts as your carry on, you have to pay an additional $25+ each way to check a bag you might've otherwise carried on the plane.

That's $125 and you have to keep the dog locked up in a bag the entire flight, so I don't see how it could affect their cleaning.

On the other hand, it does mean that effective ticket prices would now be more expensive for people who have service animals. While not necessarily malicious, it is a form of discrimination. Airlines don't charge overweight passengers extra for seatbelt extenders.

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