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Comment by logifail | Hacker News Reader

If Microsoft really believes no-one needs IE, why is it still shipping it as part of Windows 10?

Specifically, why is it still shipping IE as the only browser as part of Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC, including LTSC 2019? Yes, that is the version of Windows 10 with an "extended support end date of 9 January 2029"*

* https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifec...

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Same reason they're still shipping Notepad, or the non-Powershell command interpreter: backwards compatibility with old enterprise software that hooks directly into those specific things (e.g. by targeting the mouse at specific pixels.)

Basically, think of it like: LTSC ships without a browser. If you want a browser, go install one from the App Store. What it does ship with is an ActiveX-enabled-Intranet client.

What you describe is a valid reason for Windows to continue shipping with MSHTML.dll — not a valid reason to continue shipping the actual iexplore.exe GUI executable.

You might be surprised just how much legacy software does something like spawn("iexplore.exe").

And then there are all the internal corporate web portals that are still IE-only, and probably will remain so for as long as IE is supported in any shape or form.

Microsoft should certainly make it easy for corporate deployments to re-enable iexplore.exe — but it shouldn't be available by default on your typical Windows 10 install. (It's already available to uninstall and reinstall as an "optional feature".)

Or at the very least, Explorer and the task bar should do everything in its power to hide the existence of Internet Explorer 11. It shouldn't be listed as a program anywhere by default and it shouldn't come up in search.

So do something like what they did with .NET 2.0/3.0 where it’s a feature that has to be installed? But if it detects it’s needed, asks the user to install it right then? That’s actually a good idea. Why isn’t it like this?

This is probably a good idea. It seems that so many of the IE users I deal with at work do not need IE for any reason, they are just familiar with the icon and continue to use it even if any other browser would work just as well.

Legacy software like pretty much all of GOG's installers when you click the "Download" button on one of the embedded ads that show during installation :-P

Internet Explorer has a COM API which enterprise software (or worse, weird company-specific VBA scripts) can and likely does use to drive it directly. That API launches the actual iexplore.exe GUI executable and lets your code control it and interact with web pages, much like you might do with something like Selenium these days - except that this dates back to the nineties.

> If Microsoft really believes no-one needs IE, why is it still shipping it as part of Windows 10?

We have multi-million dollar software that relies on IE to run -- that's why. What good is an OS that can't run our software?

Since Windows 10 we've setup an icon to just launch this application in IE and set the default browser for end-users to Chrome.

Eventually that software will be replaced and we can end our use of IE but today is not that day.

IE doesn't have to ship with Windows 10, does it? Is there any reason it couldn't be a separate install?

I don't use it so I'd rather not have it on my machine.

From what I recall, iexplore.exe is actually only a small wrapper around mshtml.dll. A lot of software depend on mshtml.dll and related DLLs. So you might think you're not using IE, but other non-browser software you use might be using IE under the covers. If Microsoft doesn't install IE by default, these programs would not work correctly (which is why Wine also implements these DLLs).

Correct, iexplore.exe is itself a small wrapper. But that doesn't stop Microsoft from not shipping that small wrapper. Software that embeds mshtml.dll does not require the existence of the exe file.

(Or alternatively, Microsoft could put some hack into Windows so that attempts to run iexplore.exe are passed to Edge unless the administrator has twiddled with some arbitrary registry key or group policy.)

> But that doesn't stop Microsoft from not shipping that small wrapper.

They could but that goes back to reply about it existing software still requiring IE.

IE will be around for as long as very critical apps still require it. In some form, it might be around forever.

IE should just be a compatibility mode in edge so you only have one program and a button to say "this page is broken, load in legacy mode". That way everyone else in the world can stop being forced to support IE users.

This won't work where ActiveX is required. They would have to write a plug-in wrapper...

The legacy mode would surely run MSHTML.dll for the entire page.

> But that doesn't stop Microsoft from not shipping that small wrapper.

But what's the benefit of complicating the install?

1. Most people will never install it.

2. A smaller OS.

3. A more secure OS (the wrapper probably isn't bug free).

> the wrapper probably isn't bug free

This probably only matters if it's attempted to be used.

I will concede that you will save a few MB on your multi-GB Windows install.

It's basically the same way with VB6 apps - so many of them out there, and MS can't get rid of the runtime DLL...

The desktop component of this very same application requires the VB6 runtime. And the server side requires Korn shell (for Windows)!

You have to install Chrome anyway, why not also install IE?

I'm sure this would not be a big deal for a multi-million dollar company.

IE is an OS component; it's not merely a browser.

Many Enterprises run critical legacy apps that depend on IE and it's ability to emulate lower versions. Many large orgs would require $100's of millions to rewrite all of them. No one will fund exercise that until the proverbial gun is point at them. 2029 sounds about right.

Many large orgs would require $100's of millions to rewrite all of them.

My org loaded Chrome on all of the machines for our internal web sites, but according to my logs, almost nobody uses it. They're just too used to clicking on the (e), I guess.

Your org should replace the (e) with a shortcut to Chrome—but with the name and icon changed to match Internet Explorer. Much easier than retraining all the monkeys.

Minimizing their support surface makes a ton of sense for a long-term release, and of course if you just choose one browser for Enterprise you're gonna choose the one people built their internal apps on for the last few decades.

I expect it's not not that MS believes no one needs IE, it's that they know they're stuck with it and would really rather not be.

Well, as someone who installed various versios of windows over the last two decades,I can say that the only purpose of IE is a gateway to Chrome or Mozilla websites.Once they get downloaded it never gets opened again.

...and ActiveX reliant legacy apps...

Committed support until 2029 for VB6 and other .Net functionality still require it

Because MS would sell exactly zero copies of windows to larger enterprises without it.

How else are you meant to download Firefox or Chrome? :P

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