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Comment by jrsdav | Hacker News Reader

I experienced this while visiting Japan.

While doing a transfer on the Shinkansen in Hiroshima, I left my camera bag at a noodle kiosk on the platform (around $3k worth of equipment). Didn't realize it until 2 hours after getting on the next train.

When we arrived at our destination, I told my friend we were meeting (a Japanese native) what happened, and she reassured me that it would be right where I left it (said something about there being a "taboo" with the Japanese and touching other people's private property).

So we walked over to the JR attendant and explained what happened, and in no time at all she had the other station attendant on the line who confirmed they found my bag. Just as easy as that.

Then I proceeded to lose my wallet and passport in a taxi, which we recovered just as easily!

Japan is a great country to visit, if while abroad you displace the part of your brain that keeps track of things...

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On the first day of our last trip taking my grandmother back to her home village outside of Kyoto, some of her luggage was left behind on the train, and while Lost and Found managed to pull it off at a later stop, it had gotten a pretty far distance from where we were heading.

I navigated to the small station on the lower platform where the attendants held her luggage and gave them her name. The younger one asked where my grandmother was and then gave me a regretful look when I said she was disabled and wouldn't be able to travel this far, because they could only release the bag to its owner.

An older attendant pulled him aside then stepped up and asked me what my name was. "I'm her grandson, Washadjeffmad. I reported the missing luggage.", I explained and held out my passport. Without looking at it, he sighed and stepped off again. When he reappeared, he asked me again where she was, and I told him- on her way to Kyoto. He closed his eyes, said something I didn't catch, and then asked "Are you sure she's not here?" Clearly she wasn't. It'd been a decade, but was my Japanese really so bad?

Another man emerged from the back to observe his two obviously frustrated coworkers, then pulled them back to talk. When they reappeared this time, the older man asked, "Are you Washadjeffmad's grandmother?" And it finally clicked.

"Yes. That's me."

And they immediately handed over my bag.

Japan is a funny place.

On the other hand, the Japanese are inveterate umbrella thieves. So much so that you will find locking umbrella racks in many buildings.

The pressure has to go somewhere.

Why umbrellas specifically? I read the article and I enjoyed it, but the question of why umbrellas are not treated the same in terms of being returned was mentioned but not answered. Near the end of the article, there is this sentence

> “Communal property is virtually unheard of except for that many people seem to regard umbrellas as up for grabs if not properly secured.”

Because when the rain comes down, it COMES DOWN HARD, and you NEED an umbrella NOW. I started doing the same after living there a few years.

Same thing with stealing crappy bikes with flat tires from the nearest bike rack to get home when you're drunk as a skunk at 3 am.

You can buy them everywhere for 300-1000 yen, those models are the ones that everyone uses so it isn't much of a sacrifice for everyone to buy another umbrella a few times a year.

an even more basic answer is that these super cheap umbrellas that everyone buys all look kinda the same, so it's hard to track your own umbrella unless you put some sort of sticker on it.

So it's not even necessarily a concious system, just the end result of easily being confused between umbrellas.

Yeah, everyone has a moment when they notice a wrong umbrella in their hand. Could happen immediately upon pickup or could happen later.

From there your view branches into the direction of either communal property idea or an internal shame/rage/regrets. So far I consider mine a personal property.

Is this for fancy umbrellas or any umbrella? I once lost a cheap plastic umbrella while visiting a castle, which I left for a minute to take a photo and it was gone, and I always assumed another tourist took it by mistake.

The article hits on this, suggesting that they are viewed as communal property since they're so abundant, cheap and frequently forgotten. Umbrellas are also an on demand item, so can see how this could evolve as a sort of community solution to the rain problem.

I visited Japan and was caught in the rain with no umbrella. I hid next to an awning near a school. A person came out from inside and offered me to take an umbrella from the numerous ones that were left by the people inside.

I suspect "communal property" is a better way to think of what happens with umbrellas than "umbrella thieves".

I was in Japan last week and I can confirm that I forgot every umbrella I used -- I hope you got one of mine.

My family of 5 was caught walking back to our AirBNB in pouring rain during a trip to Tokyo. A man ran out of a FamilyMart (think 7-11), chased us down, and handed us umbrellas for the entire family. My first thought was, how nice of this gentleman to do this for complete strangers.

My second thought, how cheap am I for not walking my family in the store to buy the damn umbrellas myself?!

What is the rain problem? I live in the Pacific Northwest where it rains for 9 months out of the year. Our solution is to not use umbrellas at all. Everyone has a waterproof rain jacket.

In Seattle where it rains frequently but lightly, you really don't need an umbrella. But in places where it rains hard, umbrellas become a lot more desirable. A waterproof rain jacket won't help much in a torrential downpour. Maybe with a waterproof wide-brimmed hat as well, but chances are you'll still get drenched without an umbrella.

To put some numbers on it for perspective: Seattle is infamous for rain, but only averages 38 inches of rain per year. Miami, which is known for sunny beaches, averages 62 inches of rain per year. Tokyo gets 60 inches.

Plus, the raincoat doesn't mesh well fashion-wise with the suits everyone wears to work and uniforms for school. People dress very well in Japan.

>To put some numbers on it for perspective: Seattle is infamous for rain, but only averages 38 inches of rain per year.

I wonder if it has to do with duration vs. intensity. Long periods of drizzle might not be nearly as much total rainfall as short periods of downpour. From what I've seen of the PNW on my few trips there, it seems to drizzle a lot.

Yes, that's precisely the case. Seattle is perceived as very rainy because it's very often rainy. But rarely does it rain hard. Usually it drizzles so light it won't even mess up your hair.

In Japan and many other parts of East Asia, it rains most during the hottest months of summer. You don't wear jackets when it's 30+ °C and humid outside.

But after living in the region for many years, I agree people also tend to be a bit irrationally afraid of the rain.

Ah, but I suppose there are areas with bigger fears of rain. I was hitchhiking through spain and someone who picked me up was a wine farmer, who told stories of people not coming to work, because that day it was raining - in a different village.

I've had people cancel meetings with me in San Francisco 'because it was raining'. To be fair the roads here do become significantly more stressful then, but whenever it happens it feels ridiculous. My theory is that whatever the worst 1-2% of weather days per year becomes a weather excuse anywhere in the world. In the Phillipines it had to be bad typhoon, not just a normal one. In London it was moderate snowfall (that wouldn't cause a dent in switzerland for instance).

I remember my first visit to California. We were in Santa Cruz for work, and got down to the breakfast room in the hotel and the tv news talked about storms. We looked out and it was drizzling. Walked to the office and got slightly damp, and coworkers thought we were crazy.

Lived in Juneau Alaska years ago, and my first year there it rained every day except for three. Those three sunny days everyone called in sick and met down on the beach!

It's funny, in Japan, nobody wears sunglasses, but _everybody_ carries an umbrella. Basically the opposite in the US.

Generally the months with rain are the hotter ones - wearing a rain jacket would result in you sweating buckets

In Japan blue skies is the norm though. No clouds most of the time.

I find ppl who wear rain jackets smell (and look goofy)

Do they smell like rain?

Good old 'petrichor'[1], I've never noticed it emanating from a human. I wonder if geosmin is used in any fragrance-products though, or even if specific skin flora (bacteria) might produce it?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrichor?wprov=sfla1

Sounds like geosmin is actually not that pleasant on its own.. I like petrichor personally but can imagine the earthy aspect on its own might not be entirely pleasant.

No, BO. Anyway a astringent acidic smell. Like lactic acid.

I have a sensitive nose, and my office mate bikes into work 7 mi through hills in any type of weather. Good for him.

But, if he had to wear his rain coat, he smells. Even after he showers and keeps his gear in the lockers.

It’s nauseating.

It's too hot to wear a rain jacket in Japan. You'll get wetter from sweating than you would from jumping fully clothed into a pool.

> Everyone has a waterproof rain jacket.

PNW rain season is winter, summer is fairly dry.

Japan is the opposite, and quite a bit warmer than PNW (at least at Tokyo’s latitude). Sweating is a problem as is in summer clothes, rain jackets would be detrimental to health.

the problem? this:

So I was getting my hair cut at this cheap place, no appointments, no conversation, you sit on the bench, wait your turn, each time a chair frees up they pop the next person off the queue. ( _alright deque_ ) It's raining and cold, and it's Melbourne so bunches of black wet puffer jackets are dripping off the two coat racks.

person in : black puffer on the hook, person out : black puffer off the hook.

Then one guy starts screaming, 'who stole my jacket? it's a north face, it's a north face.'

He's flipping through the jackets throwing people's clothes on the floor, including mine so I'm a bit unhappy with him and I walk up get him to calm down.

we manage to pair each jacket with it's owner, and we've got one left - a black superdry jacket, with some nice bluetooth headphones in the pocket.

I'd seen the owner come and leave, I suggested he would realise and come back. He could leave his number. He's not happy with this, so I sugest he take the superdry jacket to stay warm and dry, leave his number, and if the guy comes back they can arrange to swap back.

At this point the screamer starts screaming that superdryguy obviously stole his jacket because north face is better, and he's going to take the superdry jacket and the headphones as 'compensation'.

Screams some random abuse about the absent guy as he launches back out into the street (no number left).

Two minutes later the superdryguy is back - wearing a north face jacket, the scene basically repeats with a new idiot screaming, this time that he is going to sue and something about rare headphones.

I don't think this happens in Japan. Must be the umbrellas.

A beat-up genic mamachari bicycle sometimes fits this pattern.

Left unsecured near a station, it might get "borrowed" by a drunken salaryman and discarded somewhere near his home a kilometre away.

They're pretty much communal when I visited Tokyo/Kyoto. Pretty much always left the building with a different umbrella than I entered with. Just about everyone uses the same $5-10 black/gray/white/clear umbrella. They all go into the umbrella bucket when you enter a building. Everyone just grabs one on their way out that's close enough to the same as the one the dropped in. Sometimes you leave a building and it's not raining anymore and people forget their umbrella behind. People even just leave them behind before getting on the train and take one from the stop where they get off.

Note that for this to work, people have to only take the umbrella you need. Not grab all of them and sell.

BTW: I'm really glad to hear this, because I've been having some regrets about grabbing random umbrellas in Tokyo, because everyone seemed to do it. Glad I did it right after all!

I can't even imagine the effort of stealing the office umbrellas and selling them being worth it.

Yeah, right? Who would buy them when you can just grab free umbrellas at every office?

Still, I'd expect this system to break down in most non-Japan places because of things like this.

Only grab an umbrella if you also deposited one! There’s nothing more annoying than to come out of a store and find all umbrellas gone.

While I was in Tokyo a couple months ago, I put my common black/clear umbrella in the ramen shop rack. Upon exit, I was forced to grab another as mine had been nabbed. I felt horrible grabbing someone else's umbrella (though I still did haha)! I feel relieved to learn this is ok.

That's interesting because when I visited I went to an onsen and my umbrella didn't fit the lock system. Then I thought, "What do I have to worry about? I'm in Japan. Nobody will steal it." 3 hours later and it was still there waiting for me.

Probably because it was not raining?

I only had mine with me because it was raining.

There are other negative outlets. Evan Hadfield's "Rare Earth" has covered a couple of these:

- Japan's criminal justice system: https://invidio.us/watch?v=IRn4xzaugbk

- Japan's untouchables: https://invidio.us/watch?v=SIsndKkasfI

(There are of course positive elements, and Hadfield has covered those as well.)

Umbrellas are super cheap and readily available when you need one though.

I noticed this the last time I was in Tokyo. This is a place where if a stranger saw me drop cash on the sidewalk, they would hunt me down to return it. So what's the deal with all the umbrella locks? TFA explains it.

I accidentally dropped many Yens coins in Tokyo last week and multiple individuals rushed to help me. I was literally shocked.

I also forgot my wallet with my passport beside an arcade game in Akihabara and someone found me inside the arcade to give it back to me before I even noticed it was lost.

Un-locked bikes, products outside of shops, etc.

Their "Trust" system is incredible. It would never work here in Canada.

I really enjoyed my 3 weeks in Japan.

It’s because almost everyone uses the same umbrellas (cheap from a convenience store). Ive never had any other type taken.

It’s hard to tell which one is yours and it basically becomes an umbrella share pool. No big deal.

I’ve also had cases where I was caught in the rain and people tried to give me their umbrella.

This brings back strong memories from college. Everyone had black Northface zip-up jackets, so when you would go to a frat party, there would be a giant pile of jackets laid on the couches in the common room. At the end of the night, it was a crapshoot whether drunken party-goers actually found their jacket, or one of the dozens of identical ones.

The next afternoon, there would inevitably be a cascade of campus-wide emails asking for the return of jackets containing wallets/ids/keys.

The thrift shops did a strong business in supplying the most garish and distinctive "frackets" to combat this problem.

The hack here is to put distinctive stickers or something on them so anyone picking it up knows it's definitely not theirs. I've had the same umbrella in Japan for 4 years.

I really can't believe you've had a Konbini store umbrella for 4 years. They're really not that well made?

Yeah it's not holding up too well but it still keeps the rain off me!

Umbrellas are less like physical items and more like Higgs fields in Japan. They exist as a probabilistic continuum, and materialize when you need them.

Said another way: let go of the notion of “your” umbrella, and just accept that when you do occasionally purchase one, you’re inserting an umbrella into a broader system.

I’ve had people come running out of their houses to hand me umbrellas on a rainy day; they really are a social good.

Yeah.. I'd be wary of cooking up these cliched stories like the BBC. I remember being losing my cheap umbrella at the store. A woman who was happened to be coming out, upon seeing my predicament and on the rain pouring down, handed me some random umbrella from the bucket (or whatever that thing is called). I refused. So she proceeded to give me hers and then she took one from the bucket.

Umbrella's are really communal possessions in Japan. May be its a good thing, may be bad. However, this kind of silly reporting and patronizing 'cultural deconstruction' is really annoying to those of us in Asia who've subject to this for centuries on end.

Is it possible the social support structure, education, etc are creating a society where unfortunate people don't have to steal/pawn to make a living?

I think the point is that it's a cultural thing, regardless of how fortunate or unfortunate someone is.

I'm sure it plays a role, but there are countries with similar wealth and support systems, but so many things (like the lost property example) are unique to Japan.

It’s more to do with the purity of their culture resulting from low immigration which fosters a high level of mutual trust. Invariably immigration corrupts the hosting nation’s culture with trust absorbing the initial impact.

"purity" is an odd word choice there when "homogeneity" or perhaps more neutrally "uniformity" are equally accurate.

more broadly, when i see/hear this line deployed by westerners in regard to certain east asian countries, I always wonder if such westerners think such statements are generalisable to other nations, or if they have considered whether other specific cultural factors than uniformity are in play and causing/contributing heavily to the supposed higher level of mutual trust.

It's my view that, other factors disregarded, having fewer cultural/ethnic outgroups does not magically result in higher levels of mutual trust in a society. After more than 4 years in Korea I am tired of westerners using Korean society as a shining beacon-like example of cultural/ethnic uniformity in order to air their beefs with immigration in their home countries (and no, that isn't how I interpreted the parent comment; just pursuing a line of thought).

Another interesting thing to consider: the prevalence of general corporate and political malfeasance in Korea and Japan relative to their status as highly developed nations. Certainly no culture-driven concern for the wellbeing of countrymen there.

edit: Ahh just looked at the parent poster's post history and am now happy to issue a big fat Never Mind. At least I got the thought out.

> It's my view that, other factors disregarded, having fewer cultural/ethnic outgroups does not magically result in higher levels of mutual trust in a society.

This is a classic scissor statement to use SlateStarCodex lingo.

Late reply but thanks for that, I'm a casual reader of SSC and its satellite blogs but hadn't come across the Scissor one before.

I'm a little skeptical. Many Japanese live in a pretty grinding form of underemployment poverty - "freeter" will get you lots of hits in Western media. Moreover, some truly deprived groups like the urban homeless are almost notorious for generally _not_ engaging in the sort of petty property crime we're talking about that's common in similar demographics in the West.

Those make me lean towards cultural factors.

We tend to underestimate the effect culture can have. It's also why the Japanese don't litter their cities, despite few garbage bins.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/07/why-japanese-dont-lit...

Yeah, well. Maybe, maybe not. Quoted from a previous discussion:

> I was cycling in Japan for about 2 weeks, just a few weeks ago. I was also impressed in most places by how clean it was, not only in the cities, but more generally speaking about everywhere.

> At some point though, I was cycling along the coast of Mie then Wakayama prefectures, and although the scenery and roads were clean, I had a glance just behind the ramp walk, and realized that behind the trees, in the bush next to the road were hundreds of garbage bags, litter of all sort, really anything, just lying below. There was such a contrast from what my eyes were seeing until, I was shocked.

> In another town several kilometres after (I forgot which place exactly, must have been while cycling up towards Wakayama city), I passed next to a big commercial area on my right. On my left there was a small patch of forest then the sea and again, that forest contained many many plastic bags, full but neatly tied up, every couple of meters or so, for several hundreds of meters.

> I originally thought the first thrashes I saw along the road in the country side where "mistakes", like things flying off the window or pushed by the wind from another place (although there was a lot of garbage anyway). But when I saw these tied up plastic bags, they weren't there by chance, really people throw these bags away on the forest right here. That made me a bit sad, especially since it broke the original image I got.

> (And I haven't spoke about the beaches and seafront all along that peninsula; I wouldn't walk bare foot there).

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21240083

When I was in Japan in 2009, every pedestrian in the cities waited patiently at each crossing until the light turned green, even if there were no cars around at all.

However, when the streets were mostly empty, I saw one Japanese man come to an empty crossing, glance around, and cross on red.

Can't generalize much off a single example, but it did make me think peer pressure is probably a factor.

In America, the primary "road safety" I was taught as a kid was "look both ways before crossing the road." I think the Japanese priority is based more on obeying traffic lites, though this is just conjecture from media and my experience.

This said, when people are around there are more likely to be sudden cars as well. It's easier to justify jaywalking at midnight than noon.

Adhering to crossing lights is a very cultural thing. There was a thread that came up about this a week or two ago. Even within the US, perhaps especially within large northeastern cities like Boston and New York, people will cross if there's no traffic (or even if a driver has hesitated for a moment). Whereas on the West Coast people mostly obey the lights.

It depends on the situation with traffic and enforcement. At my college town the police were obsessive with writing jay walking tickets. Even if no one is around at all. They really took pride in fining broke college kids $300 for crossing the road.

In LA, there is no jaywalking enforcement, or any petty crime enforcement for that matter. The LAPD is a disproportionately tiny police force that has far bigger fish to fry. People don't jaywalk though because more pedestrians die from drivers here than any other city in the nation.

>At my college town the police were obsessive with writing jay walking tickets. Even if no one is around at all. They really took pride in fining broke college kids $300 for crossing the road.

And police in America wonder why people hate them so much.

It's sad, because sometimes you read articles about a small town's main revenue source being a speed trap. Municipal governments have not gotten the historic funding they've enjoyed from state and federal government over years of being routinely slashed by a political party that enjoys slashing routinely when in power.

So you end up with broke college kids using their student loan money to ultimately pay for trash pickup or other critical city services that were previously paid for by taxation and higher levels of government.

There's probably a historical influence here to. Most of Western US cities were designed after the introduction of the car, while Eastern cities were designed for carts and walking. That would also help explain why Japan follows them, and Europe is to massive to generalize.

I wouldn't underestimate the effect of culture, I would just tend to assume that something about Japan has caused its culture, rather than culture itself being a primary cause of attitudes towards lost property. In other words, I wouldn't consider "it's just their culture to respect lost property" a useful explanation.

I suppose you’re being downvoted because you’re seemingly hinting at genes having an effect on one’s behavior rather than just their cosmetic traits.

No, it's a cultural thing. Home burglaries and thefts from cars and shops are fairly common, but you don't take unattended bags and such that are left in the open.

If you steal even a few dollars of merchandise from a corner store, the police can hold you for a number of days without trial. And most people won't feel sorry because that's what happens to thieves, so you should have known not to do it.

A society decides what's acceptable, and how far they're willing to go to uphold these expectations.

Likewise DUI in Japan. Japan is much more strict than the US. One beer before driving and you become a guest of the state for 3 years. Just don't do it.

It’s easier to sleep it off in Japan, just lay down on the sidewalk and come morning, you’ll be unharmed, and may possibly have gained a blanket overnight. Source: many internet photos of salarymen sleeping one off in every conceivable public place

I’m sure public transit helps too.

In Japanese cities, you don't need to drive if you're drunk, and you don't even need a car at all. Just get on the train/subway, or hail a taxi, or even walk.

Drunk driving is a problem in the US because you can't get home without a car except for a handful of dense cities (Manhattan, etc.). The rise of Uber/Lyft is helping this, though.

Completely agree if you're in the cities. I spent a lot of time in Okinawa and other remote areas of Japan last month, and a car is very necessary there.

(NB driving in Japan is like driving in England except the turn signal is on the right side of the steering column, so I was constantly engaging my wipers when I wanted to turn. The locals call this "the Okinawa wave".)

Yup, Uber helps a little bit, but unless you're in the heart of the city, it can easily become very unaffordable. Like $80 per night. If you like to have a vibrant social life, even wealthy people can't afford it. That's not even touching US driving culture.

I once found a wallet on the sidewalk outside a mall in Japan. I tried to drop it at the mall's lost and found, but the security guard there took me with him to a police box. The policeman there took me to the local police station, and we spent the next hour filling out a report. They were all very friendly and appreciative that I turned it in, but it was really quite an ordeal. If I were to find something valuable again, I might just leave it alone to avoid the hassle.

I think this might have more to do with you not being one of the locals.

A good 'hack' to this might be to pick a set of 2-3 local looking people and loudly point out the item in question so that someone else can deal with it.

This works. And I do it. Too many unhinged people out there. Here in the US, I've found things in restaurants a couple of times and pointed it to the staff.

It clears the liability for all involved, since no one can claim that the staff or a fellow patron 'took it'. It was pointed out by a customer and removed with witnesses. I generally mention it to more than one staff.

I try to baseline assume that the person I'm dealing with in public is not fully there (which would include the property owner). It makes it easier to deal with when it is actually the case.

Even if you're a local this is the procedure. If the building doesn't have a lost and found (besides the train systems not all places do) then the police box will make you give over your contact information and a bunch of other stuff. It doesn't take an hou (maybe ten minutes if you speak Japanese), but it can be a pain if you just expected to throw it in without any questions.

I happened to study the process few days ago. Officer pulled out an elaborate form, asked the guy if he wants his copy, wants rights to the item if owner didn’t show up, to which he said no and no, and then he was asked to sign the blank and was told him they take care of the rest. Took 5-10 mins max.

Technically no one should ever sign a blank sheet, ever, but that could be done, I guess.

That's the beginning of a very common confidence game in Europe so I'd probably not do it. But IDK, maybe not in Japan.

Honestly, I generally prefer to find my lost item exactly where I left it.

It's funny, but in South Africa crime and especially theft is very common, and at the same time, personal property sometimes find their way back to you.

This especially tends to happen if for example you were robbed and your wallet was left behind or let's say the police were harassing you and threw your driver's license over a fence or something (true story).

I think the reason for this is that the serial criminals are really <1% of the population and probably >50% are really just normal and usually decent people.

I'd always heard about this, but the one time I left my backpack in a Yamanote Line train, it was returned with around $2000 worth of cash (in multiple different countries' currencies) missing from my wallet. My wallet was really deep inside a bag inside a bag, too, so someone clearly went digging into my backpack.

I lost my passport (didn't know at the time) at NRT. I had left it on a counter at a coffee shop. About 15 minutes later while sitting at the gate an airport employee ran up to me and handed it back. Just amazing.

I got lost when going out to hike Mt. Nokogiri. I was walking wrong-way down some road when the employee at the visitor center some 1.5km away comes running after me to inform me that I am going the wrong way. I don't know how he deduced this after I walked out of that center. He escorted me to the correct trailhead which I missed by about 500m. Welcome to Japan.

It's possible they had someone monitoring the paths or someone saw you from higher up. I've hiked Nokogiri before and along some of the sketchier areas, the stairs were literally giving way under my step. It was pure luck that I hadn't fallen to my death multiple times over.

I’ve done something similar. Dropped my hotspot in a cab and didn’t realize until after dinner a couple of hours later. Had the restaurant call the cab company and they tracked down which cab it was, confirmed it was there and had the same cab drop it off for us again at the restaurant. I don’t think this would’ve happened anywhere else.

Though don’t get a false sense of complacency; the crime rate is low but not zero. My friends had a couple of snowboards stolen from a hotel luggage concierge.

LOL, we went by that on platform noodle shop (I think they specialize in Soba) a couple times this summer, but never had the time to eat there in the end. :) Was their food good ? :-D

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