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Comment by duxup | Hacker News Reader

> the fact that the government benefits the article cited allows the men to stay at home playing video games all day

Is that actually the case?

The article takes issue with the narrative that supply and demand are involved ... but I don't think this article proves this idea that folks are enjoying government benefits and that results in them not working. The article certainly mentions it, but is pretty short on evidence.

Plenty of US states have been cutting benefits, and they're not seeing people go back to work.

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Disability is a federal benefit (not state) and according to the article a whopping 2/3 of these men are on at least 1 federal disability benefit. Furthermore, 1/2 of the men take prescription pain medication daily.

The government benefits certainly make it easier to not work, but the article does pain to say that correlation is not causation - it is a multi-factor phenomenon. Government benefits may enable the behavior but it isn't a cause.

What really had my brain going is why is this not the case in the Western Europe? Social benefits are just as generous and marriage rates are lower than in the United States.

According to the article in the US marriage and children were the strongest statistical differentiator between men who stop seeking work and those that do.

All I could come up with is that in the US it is the pain medication and the fact that it is easier to isolate yourself and hole up in your home.

> What really had my brain going is why is this not the case in the Western Europe?

Can you explain? Western Europe by and large suffers from the same problem. According to Brookings (https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/ccf_201...), while the US has a faster rate of male labor de-participation, the UK, Canada, and France are experiencing similar issues (Figure 2). No idea about the cause though.

The article says that in Western Europe the rate at which men drop out is much lower than in the US. I only had the article as a frame of reference for my question, I did not have the Brookings institution study for additional color. Interesting reading, thank you.

In Europe the benefits are not necessarily tied to being diagnosed with a disabling condition. In the US they are, so people do what they can to manifest a disabling condition so that they can qualify for generous benefits along with drugs that can be resold on the black market. Clearly this was not the intended result but it's sort of a third rail politically so there has been no real movement towards reforming this in any meaningful direction.

Could be the difference in pay for low wage jobs. It seems that this is what it comes down to.

Many male, high-school dropouts have decided it's a better deal to just coast by on disability and money from friends/family then to work for $10/hour at McDonald's or similar.

The way to bring them back into the workforce, IMO, is to offer them a better deal. If low-wage jobs in the U.S. were as good as they are in Eastern Europe, maybe more men would take them.

Another person commented below what I think is brilliant insight.

"In America (USA) you ARE your job; it defines you. The American Way is to be hard working and self sufficient. If you can't do that, there are tremendous psychological effects. You can't blame these men for giving up."

It is absolutely true that worth and career are highly correlated here in the US. Most of us talk about work even when we aren't at work. I think this is probably the big difference between US and Europe having read it.

Meh. The idea that Americans talk only about their job is mainly only true in the upper classes of professionals. Most Americans, the poor and lower middle class, do not talk about their jobs, because talking about being a taxi driver or walmart greeter is not as engaging as talking about being an investment banker, lawyer, or software engineer.

FWIW, the same is true in Europe. Rich people define themselves by the method in which they get rich.

> Most of us talk about work even when we aren't at work

People on hacker news are mostly upper middle class.

Another way to phrase that is that jobs at the lower end are not worth talking about. They're not a point of pride. Combine that with the GP notion that people use their job as part of their identity and what does that do to their self esteem?

> If low-wage jobs in the U.S. were as good as they are in Eastern Europe, maybe more men would take them.

Are you saying low wage wage jobs are good in EE? I can assure you that's not the case. Millions of low wage workes from EE left for Western Europe upon joining the EU. They still do low wage work, but the pay is so much higher in the UK, Germany, Norway etc.

In Germany, you can receive partial disability benefits ("Erwerbsminderungsrente"); that is, you might be evaluated as being capable of 3-6 hours of work per day, and thus receive only a portion of what would have been your full disability payment. Also, it's accepted (even hoped) that you might become fully fit again.

https://www.deutsche-rentenversicherung.de/DRV/EN/Leistungen... (under "Invalidity pension")

More details in German: https://www.deutsche-rentenversicherung.de/DRV/DE/Rente/Allg...

> Disability is a federal benefit (not state)...

Maybe in the state in which you live. I am currently on state (CA) disability.

-- which will expire after you've been on it for 52 weeks [1] after which, if you still cannot work, you can resort to (US) federal disability insurance.

[1] https://ca.db101.org/ca/programs/income_support/sdi/faqs.htm...

It's not the kind of safety net they're talking about, but a lot of the young are supported at a livable level by their parents. (source: am doing this)

I'd argue that this isn't inherently bad, but ultimately this can amount to "eating one's seed corn". In the long run, twenty-somethings that do this risk a financially more perilous life and a lower chance of being able to give their kids a good start in life.

Is there anything you have done that has improved motivation of your kids to get out of the house? I'm asking as a mid-twenty year old who has a few friends that haven't had a real job in years and wants to help. The main issue I've run into is that they just don;t care they are burdening their parents

I have friends like this too. you know them better than I of course, but I doubt that your friends don't care at all about burdening their parents. imo, guilt is just not a very effective motivator for someone to get their life together. it tends to make them feel bad and get even more set in their ways. the only way I've ever seen this work out is after some spark that gives the person an intrinsic desire to improve their own life (and the belief than they can).

as for what you can do for your friends, there's probably not much. the best you can do is to live well yourself and be a good example for them. also, be careful. there is some truth to the saying, "you become the average of your five best friends." if you get too involved in their day-to-day, you will experience friction when it comes to accomplishing your own goals.

When I was younger, everybody just wished for independence. What changed?

I'm betting on housing cost and low quality of life for youngs, but well, I do have very little evidence to substantiate it.

I have some twenty-something friends with upper-middle class parents who still live with them. they either didn't finish college or chose a less lucrative major than CS. they have low-wage jobs and mostly work less than fulltime.

the common thread I see is that living with their parents simply offers a higher standard of living than they could have if they moved out. I live in a relatively low COL area, so they would certainly be able to make ends meet if they cut the cord. but they would eat worse food, have a smaller room, and little money left over to save or go out. I imagine it's hard to find to motivation to work harder just to move out and decrease one's standard of living. I was very fortunate to land a good job straight out of college where I was actually able to increase my standard of living after moving out (although I do miss my mom's cooking).

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