Comment by electrograv | Hacker News Reader

Comment by electrograv | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

This is interesting because the idea of owning a car that takes regular OTA updates, and can be disabled or tracked remotely at any time by the manufacturer — to me is very scary/creepy.

Maybe I’m paranoid, but I have a hard time not extrapolating the OTA update experience from other software (desktop, phone OS’s) to cars too: updates breaking features inadvertently but with no prompt fix, injecting new spyware against your will but with no real alternate, updated terms of service that you have no choice but to agree to if you want to be able to drive home, etc.

Given the track record with OTA software updates everywhere else, we need positive assurance that the there won’t be these same profitable compromises of user experience, privacy, freedom, etc. eventually for these cars. Because the status quo is quite the opposite. Have you read the terms of service and related documents you signed when buying your Tesla, in full?

I fully agree about self driving / driver assistance though, and for example am thrilled that Toyota now includes in all their new cars (for free, as a base feature) their entire autonomous drivers assistance sensor suite and features: adaptive cruise control (works in stop and go traffic), lane steering assistance, automatic braking, automatic high/low beams, etc. (and it all works very reliably in my experience). I know it’s nothing like the autonomous features Tesla offers in their upgrade package, but this is a very welcome change in the industry.

OTA updates certainly present risks, but we shouldn't pretend there is no downside to the old approach. For example, both Tesla and Toyota have had similar problems with the brake software on their vehicles. Tesla had a software fix in a few days which immediately began automatically fixing vehicles [1]. Toyota also had a fix quickly, but they had to recall 185,000 vehicles so a technician could manually apply the update [2]. Were all those impacted Toyota's updated, how quickly were they updated, and how many accidents occurred because they weren't updated quick enough? This is especially important when it comes to self driving or driver assistance software. What happens if there is a bug discovered in Toyota's version of that software?

I think in the end we need some type of regulation or oversight on this because a company being either carelessly aggressive or anti-consumer with OTA updates is a serious risk, but that doesn't mean the potential of OTA updates should be thrown out with the bath water.

[1] - https://www.consumerreports.org/car-safety/tesla-model-3-get...

[2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9311_Toyota_vehicle...

I think the broader point here is not having control over something you bought. Like why not give the user the choice to opt out of telemetry or even non-essential auto-updates (like Debian)?

It might not be satisfying, but the answer is a reminder that you bought a car from Tesla and not a perpetual license to use their services. They are providing that service on the condition of you agreeing to their terms. If you don't agree, you can remove or disable the car's cellular connection. The core features of the car will still work, but a lot of noncritical aspects like maps, voice control, streaming music, the phone app, etc will be disabled.

Privacy is not something Elon or the U.S. writ large cares much about beyond the superficial, so it's not something Tesla cares about handling well for those of us who do value it. Not saying it will necessarily be any better with other manufacturers, but it is an area where they could differentiate. I would consider jumping ship from Tesla on this basis alone.

I'm completely with you on that, after those Jeep hacks that came out a few years back I think an internet connection on my vehicle is kind of the last thing I want.

Maybe I'm just paranoid though.

I wonder if there could be an option for your vehicle to only turn on the internet connection and check for updates while it's charging?

That is basically how it works today with Tesla. And you have the option of applying the updates.

It’s absolutely something you should be in complete control over. I should at least be able to offline the car unilaterally.

Little known fact. You can install off the shelf commaai eon kit for $800 bucks on a Toyota and you get almost Tesla level autopilot.

I just drove from Seattle to Portland on 3hr without any manual intervention. Was a blast.

Toyotas are great, I’ve always loved their simplicity and how long they last. I hope they have a good line up of electric cars soon.

(own a tm3, assume whatever slant for what follows)

well as to the one fear, being tracked all the time. do you have a smart phone? okay, you are tracked.

as to whether or not you need to fear being remotely disabled by the manufacturer that remains to be seen. what is more worrisome would be government mandating a manufacturer do it to one or more cars or the idea if a company folds a keep alive feature or such fails and all the cars go dark.

as to bugs, well that is a real issue and what perfect timing you have. recently Tesla made this big push to deliver version 2019.40.50.x in order to give people this preview on full self driving. Namely showing that it indeed recognizes lights, signs on the road and alongside, and more. However two issues.

1. I have had four .x updates since the first for bugs. Even .7 which just got to me Thursday crashes the display if you do sort your contact list you can crash the display and it has to reboot. The car still drives, just no display until it reboots

2. To see the FSD demo features you need HW3 which means all TM3s prior to recent do not have that but instead have HW2.5 Those who bought FSD either with the car or after were promised it included a HW3 upgrade that was heavily hinted as being performed before EOY19. It was not and Telsa has gone dark, meaning they won't give you a date or anything when asked. Telsa is going to piss off a lot of owners if they make this right

Now OTA is finally resolving issues many have had with lack of features other brands have had for a long time. You can finally select the track of music playing from your BT phone in the current playlist... clumsy but it works. You however cannot select which playlist to play. Voice commands finally showed up but Tesla does not provide a list of them, for that you have to rely on 3rd party sites for a quick list. [0]

As for FSD itself, all the safety side features are pretty much growing to be common place in other brands. Not consistent though and you do need to buy a new car each time you want improved or new features of it; unlike Tesla. Meaning a 2019 Corolla cannot do what a 2020 can in regards of programmable safety. This does not mean Telsa has the implementation, just that unlike other brands if they add a feature you don't need a whole new car to get it. The key FSD feature is that a Tesla will drive on nearly any road for you and do it very competently. Some brands geofence where you can use it.

[0] https://www.tesmanian.com/blogs/tesmanian-blog/voice-command...

Reply on news.ycombinator.com