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laretluval

Check back in 10 years after the replication crisis has burned through this field.

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If a psychology study concluded that the sun will rise tomorrow, would you dispute it based on the replication crisis?

This kind of knee jerk dismissal is becoming tiresome on this site.

I’d revert to my prior, just like here.

It seems far-fetched to you that learning a second language has benefits for the brain?

The fact that it seems intuitive increases the risk that the study is wrong

Well, the article points out that the common sense until the 1960s was that bilingualism was worse. We also used to think neurogenesis/neuroplasticity didn't exist in adulthood.

I think it would be major news wrt our modern understanding of the brain if it turned out that we indeed should learn fewer things rather than more things to keep our brains functioning optimally. That sounds like 1950s superstition all over again, like running out of neurons.

As someone who grew up in a bilingual environment, it seems intuitive to me that I'm worse for it (in terms of my social dealings and my problem-solving skills).

I think if I had linguistic skills tested, I would probably be rated above-average for both English and my maternal tongue, but somehow to me it just doesn't feel that way... and I find this profoundly annoying, I feel home nowhere.

Under-reporting of one’s ability is often related to having a _higher_ ability though. perhaps a heightened perception of your linguistic shortcomings is an unfortunate by-product of that superior ability

I don’t know what I believe is true - I’m just saying it’s possible the study could be true AND it also be the case that many multilinguals feel the opposite

> Under-reporting of one’s ability is often related to having a _higher_ ability though. perhaps a heightened perception of your linguistic shortcomings is an unfortunate by-product of that superior ability

I don't think this is true. Unless you've misreading the Dunning Krueger paper.

It is a corollary essentially of running it the opposite direction on the axis, Imposter Syndrome.

It seems consistent with "every answer coming with two more questions" a "tree-like" question structure as knowing more means knowing more about the unknowns.

So someone less familiar would think "Carpentry? Illiterate innumerate peasants could do it, more strength than skill." Meanwhile even a master carpenter of bespoke homes would know that they are inferior to a jouneyman cooper who worked before metallic barrel rings because they didn't have call for making joins that round and tight, that they hardly even worked with steam bending, and that they use automated tools that millenia ago would have been done by say hand and feel and calculations rather than using a micrometer.

I'm not bilingual, so this is an outsider looking in, but piggybacking off the sibling comment I wonder if you feel you're worse at language because you'll often have thoughts during a conversation that your brain can express easily in one language but not the one currently being spoken? So you often feel like you're having trouble expressing yourself in any given language?

One could argue that such events occur for everyone, but for a monolingual it would speak to the failings of the one language they speak, not of their inability to express thoughts. Or maybe such events occur more often for those who are bilingual because the brain can come up with a greater diversity of thoughts, owing to its mastery of two "modes" of thought.

As a bilingual (and a writer/storyteller by trade), I've always seen the second language as opening my brain to other phrases and analogies that don't exist in the other language. Some people aren't able to parse the extra options, but many are.

It is a known thing that Bilinguals usually have a smaller vocabulary by grade level in both languages on average compared to most peera but well within proficiency windows. Social issues are likely way more "awkwardness" of being a minority among a minority than shared identity than deficiency related.

Looking at the numbers effectively it seems that monolinguals have diminished returns - and I can see that just because a lot of problem spaces are like that.

Granted "vocabulary size" isn't quite apples to apples given how languages and syntaxes differ.

There is actually a pretty good study that shows that people are able to guess which studies will replicate and which will not:

https://80000hours.org/psychology-replication-quiz/

Well, most common sense things are indeed right, so...

That's what GP is referring to. Because people don't expect common sense to be overturned, bad science that supports it tends to survive and reach wider audiences.

So if you're ready about a study that supports common sense, it had unfair advantages to reach you and is less likely to have underlying merit.

Occam's razor is just another brand of shaving razors.

Well, Occam's Razor is just common sense based itself.

It's not an absolute rule, and not something that has been (or can be) proven.

The article is specifically about children who grow up bilingually. Until this "breakthrough", those children were thought to be disadvantaged, because they did not learn a single language in the same depth as the majority (so was the reasoning at least).

As usual, it is hard to correct for other factors; children who grow up bilingually usually belong to privileged classes.

I am wondering about the ending statement in your comment:

> As usual, it is hard to correct for other factors; children who grow up bilingually usually belong to privileged classes.

I am pretty sure that is true in Switzerland, but in the USA kids like that frequently start out in the lower-middle class (first generation Americans).

Easy - study children in Eastern Europe/Baltic states. Lots of people grow up bilingual, with English as a third language, too.

Lots of those people become tetralingual because they have time left over the three languages that are taught anyways. E.g. Russian and Estonian as native language, English plus a fourth language from school. Those who do not have a bilingual family only learn three during the same time. E.g. Estonian, English and Russian.

I kind-of envy the first group of people because it's cool to be able to access so many spheres of culture, I often use Google Translate to try and get a glimpse of Russian forums for example, it's just very different and so useful because of that.

Russian forums have all sorts of nice software/hacks for smartphones, tablets, laptops, etc. Only place I could find a programmer (and a ton of firmware) for washing machine and dryer boards.

Chinese forums/websites seem to be even better, but harder to get into (translation issues, have to sign up/log in to a lot of them).

Maybe smart healthy people are the type to learn a second language?

It's the norm for entire nations.

It doesn't matter if it's intuitive. Lots of intuitive things are false.

Further, the more you think about it, the less intuitive it is. I believe that second languages, completely unstratified on other factors, is correlated with "better brains" by some metric. I do not believe that the statement that this is causal, or totally uniform. Could it not be that better brains seek out new languages? Could it be that learning a language is healthy for some part of the population and not others? For a trivial example, is learning a fifth language really worth your time? Is it possible that people who learn a new language would do absolutely nothing with that time otherwise?

As for my own thoughts, learning a new natural language is extraordinarily boring. There are no problems to solve, it's just memorization and exercise. It takes a tremendous capacity to deal with boredom to learn a new language, and the tremendous capacity to deal with boredom does not strike me as uniformly good, though it does strike me as probably being correlated with higher average intelligence.

Yes, I would bet that there is no causal effect.

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