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Comment by blue_box | Hacker News Reader

Of course, people who come from abroad have some effect on the salaries but I think the main reason is that life quality is really high in Europe (especially in Germany) so employees don't negotiate properly for their salary. When I talk with my colleagues, most of them are saying that the money that they earn is enough, there is no reason to ask for more.

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Depends what your family can provide you and what your goals in life are.

If you're set to inherit properties/money from your parents or you're ok with being a renter for life at the mercy of your landlord then any salary in Europe is fine.

If you have to buy a property on your own where you could raise a family in then salaries are far from fine.

Anytime I her someone in Western Europe say salaries are fine and shrug it off, usually it's because they will receive an inheritance or significant financial assistance from parents when the time comes to buy a house so they never feel underpaid.

you can get a mortgage credit with a really low interest rate. If you have a family, your rent probably will be higher than your mortgage payment. (5% rule) so without earning a high salary, you can still buy a house.

> You can still buy a house

Read `take a 30y mortgage` with plenty of downside risk is quite a low bar for one of the best paying industries in the world.

The disconnect between salaries and the housing market in western EU is pretty much at an all-time high. If these are the expectations for tech salaries then how about the rest of the (middle-class) workforce?

Don't know why you're being downvoted. If people would look at the property prices in German cities for example they'd get it. Unless you and your partner are very high earners you're priced out of buying anything family worthy in all cities with tech jobs.

Germany is the poster child for controlled rent working well for everybody, to the point where it is more of hassle to buy.

What are you talking about ? Are you even living in Germany? The rent prices here in Berlin are bonkers, landlords are asking 800 Euros warm for 35 sqm "flats" and they are able to get away with it because every flat in the area has at least 30+ applicants. Even if it is rent controlled and the contracts are illegal, you can not report it otherwise you get kicked and no other landlord will rent you their property. They literally ask you if you had any legal conflicts with your previous landlord and they can actually refuse your application because of this.

In my opinion, as ein verrückte britische Ausländer living in Berlin, the rent control is why so many people show up to flat viewings.

However, I think there is a lot of price variation in Berlin, and many cheap parts: I’m paying €485 for a room in a WG in Buchholz, while collecting €820 (after fees, at current exchange rates) from a flat in a quiet village 30 minutes away from Cambridge in the UK.

Sorry, I'm confused about your statement. Is your WG room in Berlin expensive and your flat in Cambridge cheap or the other way arround?

I find Berlin to be cheap.

>If these are the expectations for tech salaries then how about the rest of the (middle-class) workforce?

The expectation seems to be we will go back to a sharp division between property owners and eternal tenants, like it was when my 95 year old grandparents were kids.

The Old World still likes its Feudalism it seems.

Is it better in the US? San Fancisco / NY / Boston sound way worse despite way higher wages. I don't really hear much from people outside of those places.

You can get a nice 1BR in or close to NY for $2000 USD. Working in NY the average tech salary all in for someone with a few years of experience is $150k.

Working as a developer in the USA is way better than being a developer in Europe.

>Is it better in the US? The places you listed are probably the worse when it comes to feudalism-lite. I live in the middle of the country and the engineers I graduates with purchased property around 26-27. Our salaries are probably 75% of the bigger cities but cost of living easily makes up for that (in my opinion).

If your company does not pay above market rate, you may naturally end up with employees who are satisfied with their salaries.

The quality of living in Germany is in decline in recent years, unfortunately, as our government knows only how to waste money when economy boomed, but is completely incompetent what to do with growing challenges, and how to ensure its relevance and growth in future. Introducing new taxes every week is not a mark of competence.

> I think the main reason is that life quality is really high in Europe (especially in Germany) so employees don't negotiate properly for their salary.

I think it is mainly supply/demand issue.

There might be also a thing where we see how it plays out in Switzerland and Norway where salaries are very high indeed, but your money does not go nearly as far.

That's the reason why people work for a company in Switzerland and live in Germany.

Your money doesn't go as far if you live the same lifestyle (eating out, or generally labor-intensive services) but you definitely can live relatively cheaply in Switzerland because the prices of most essential goods don't vary as much between countries as some like to claim. What is expensive in Switzerland is labor. If you cook, you won't be spending much more on groceries than you would in Germany or Italy. Factoring in personal taxes, which are generally much lower in Switzerland, makes them virtually equal in my experience.

I can't comment on Norway as I have never been, but I live in Switzerland right now and I, along with other students I know here, typically live relatively cheaply by avoiding most optional services.

I used to scoff but this might be part of it. I think asking for money is considered vulgar, at least subconsciously. Tall poppy syndrome is real too.

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