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Comment by ChuckNorris89 | Hacker News Reader

I wish EU work visa restrictions would be as high as the US ones. Tech salaries in Western Europe are low enough as it is and the whole developer shortage the employers keep crying about to the media is a scam to justify lax visa restrictions for cheaper workforce from abroad.

Under current conditions EU companies can hire pretty much anyone across the globe. Do you think SV salaries would be as high as they are if they could import any workers hassle free?

My ex employer was low balling everyone and after failing to recruit anyone locally due to low pay he the focused on hiring exclusively Indians and Chinese who were just happy to be in Europe accepting any wage citing the good air quality and social services compared to back home.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for them, and glad they're happy here but flooding the market with people who are happy to earn anything as long as they're allowed to live here is not a market I'd like to compete for work in as it increases the inequality putting all the gains in the hands of the employers.

We have enough skilled workers in the EU. Importing people with wages under €50k disincentivizes employers from paying fair wages and investing in local workforce and increases income inequality. If we're talking about a shortage of truly highly skilled people we have to import then probably we should be talking about setting the bar way higher than €50k.

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This seems kind of backwards to be honest. The crackdown on H1-Bs will definitely have long term negative consequences on US tech economy, not positive consequences. A lot of major progress in tech was possible specifically because it was very easy to get h1-b visas especially for immigrants who came to study in US colleges.

Imo the issue with European immigration system is that it isn't welcoming for permanent immigration. So high skilled people go to Europe, earn some money and then go back home because they are never accepted as equal citizens in most wester European countries (both by law, but even more importantly, by culture).

In US on the other hand, immigrants can settle in much more easily and call it their new home, and become full fledged part of the society both by law and culturally. Especially in areas like SV and New York.

When you look at leadership (i.e. C-titles, VPs, Founders) of a lot of tech companies in SV and New York, first and second generation immigrants are vastly over-represented.

EDIT: also guess what is going to happen if immigration becomes harder? the outsourcing companies will get better and do the job cheaper remotely from India, so even more of the tech work will just get outsourced, meaning there will be even less tech jobs in Europe. You really can't stop the inevitable consequences of the global free market, unless you want to go full protectionist. So acquiring and KEEPING skilled labor through immigration is probably a much smarter long term choice compared to protectionist immigration strategies.

This. The culture part. I have worked in US,CA,EU. I felt US was more accepting than any other country. There is a feeling of being part of US society even though you are a temporary worker. There is very less cultural discrimination in the US.

EU,CA are a conservative xenophobic bunch. Many immigrants in Canada who are now citizens still stick their native countries flags on their cars. I have only one question for them, if you like your native country so much, why don't you go back ? If you accepted Canadian citizenship, be like one.

I remember reading a while back that CA encourages retaining native identity (comparisons were made between a quilt and a melting pot ...)

In CA, they call it mosaic. But this mosaic has lead to significant anti immigrant sentiments lately. See Québec's Law 21 and to some extend Law 9.

Think of all of the fourth generation people in the U.S. with some link to Italian or Scottish immigrants who still wear kilts, or fly the Italian flag in their homes.

It's pretty silly to Italians and Scots I'm sure, but maintaining some semblance of this distant cultural connection isn't the worst thing in the world.

And the reality is the large immigration waves of both groups in the past left as much of a mark on American culture as it left on them.

Assimilation isn't a one way street, immigrants should expect to change American culture as much as American culture changes them.

The US is perfectly capable of supplying the minds that will invent next year's technologies, but probably not at the current salaries :) It just might be that the companies making tens of billions will have to start sharing more of the pie.

"the outsourcing companies will get better and do the job cheaper remotely from India, so even more of the tech work will just get outsourced, meaning there will be even less tech jobs in Europe. You really can't stop the inevitable consequences of the global free market, unless you want to go full protectionist. So acquiring and KEEPING skilled labor through immigration is probably a much smarter long term choice compared to protectionist immigration strategies. "

I'd like to see some arguments in support of your statements. Outsourcing companies are more or less stuck at the same level, because they just jump from crappy project to crappy project and they don't invest in employee development and furthermore treat their employees poorly.

There's a line of reasoning saying that the current political meltdown in Western Europe is a direct cause of the global free market which is royally fucking blue-collar professions and is also hitting the upper layers. They've had enough of being force-fed globalization and multi-culturalism and now they're lashing out.

Anecdotal but I have recently noticed a spurt in ‘retained’ workers for dot-net, Java, and ‘open source’ work in India for anywhere from 2100 to 2800 dollars a month. Maybe this is more for small companies but those small business owners couldn’t dream of hiring someone for twice as much than that even in rural US (and no benefits or payroll and easy increase or reduction in the strength). Outsourcing and automation are way more powerful forces pressuring down salaries, whatever the visa regime (and constantly competing against each other too)

Of course, people who come from abroad have some effect on the salaries but I think the main reason is that life quality is really high in Europe (especially in Germany) so employees don't negotiate properly for their salary. When I talk with my colleagues, most of them are saying that the money that they earn is enough, there is no reason to ask for more.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Depends what your family can provide you and what your goals in life are.

If you're set to inherit properties/money from your parents or you're ok with being a renter for life at the mercy of your landlord then any salary in Europe is fine.

If you have to buy a property on your own where you could raise a family in then salaries are far from fine.

Anytime I her someone in Western Europe say salaries are fine and shrug it off, usually it's because they will receive an inheritance or significant financial assistance from parents when the time comes to buy a house so they never feel underpaid.

you can get a mortgage credit with a really low interest rate. If you have a family, your rent probably will be higher than your mortgage payment. (5% rule) so without earning a high salary, you can still buy a house.

> You can still buy a house

Read `take a 30y mortgage` with plenty of downside risk is quite a low bar for one of the best paying industries in the world.

The disconnect between salaries and the housing market in western EU is pretty much at an all-time high. If these are the expectations for tech salaries then how about the rest of the (middle-class) workforce?

Don't know why you're being downvoted. If people would look at the property prices in German cities for example they'd get it. Unless you and your partner are very high earners you're priced out of buying anything family worthy in all cities with tech jobs.

Germany is the poster child for controlled rent working well for everybody, to the point where it is more of hassle to buy.

What are you talking about ? Are you even living in Germany? The rent prices here in Berlin are bonkers, landlords are asking 800 Euros warm for 35 sqm "flats" and they are able to get away with it because every flat in the area has at least 30+ applicants. Even if it is rent controlled and the contracts are illegal, you can not report it otherwise you get kicked and no other landlord will rent you their property. They literally ask you if you had any legal conflicts with your previous landlord and they can actually refuse your application because of this.

In my opinion, as ein verrückte britische Ausländer living in Berlin, the rent control is why so many people show up to flat viewings.

However, I think there is a lot of price variation in Berlin, and many cheap parts: I’m paying €485 for a room in a WG in Buchholz, while collecting €820 (after fees, at current exchange rates) from a flat in a quiet village 30 minutes away from Cambridge in the UK.

Sorry, I'm confused about your statement. Is your WG room in Berlin expensive and your flat in Cambridge cheap or the other way arround?

I find Berlin to be cheap.

>If these are the expectations for tech salaries then how about the rest of the (middle-class) workforce?

The expectation seems to be we will go back to a sharp division between property owners and eternal tenants, like it was when my 95 year old grandparents were kids.

The Old World still likes its Feudalism it seems.

Is it better in the US? San Fancisco / NY / Boston sound way worse despite way higher wages. I don't really hear much from people outside of those places.

You can get a nice 1BR in or close to NY for $2000 USD. Working in NY the average tech salary all in for someone with a few years of experience is $150k.

Working as a developer in the USA is way better than being a developer in Europe.

>Is it better in the US? The places you listed are probably the worse when it comes to feudalism-lite. I live in the middle of the country and the engineers I graduates with purchased property around 26-27. Our salaries are probably 75% of the bigger cities but cost of living easily makes up for that (in my opinion).

There might be also a thing where we see how it plays out in Switzerland and Norway where salaries are very high indeed, but your money does not go nearly as far.

That's the reason why people work for a company in Switzerland and live in Germany.

Your money doesn't go as far if you live the same lifestyle (eating out, or generally labor-intensive services) but you definitely can live relatively cheaply in Switzerland because the prices of most essential goods don't vary as much between countries as some like to claim. What is expensive in Switzerland is labor. If you cook, you won't be spending much more on groceries than you would in Germany or Italy. Factoring in personal taxes, which are generally much lower in Switzerland, makes them virtually equal in my experience.

I can't comment on Norway as I have never been, but I live in Switzerland right now and I, along with other students I know here, typically live relatively cheaply by avoiding most optional services.

If your company does not pay above market rate, you may naturally end up with employees who are satisfied with their salaries.

The quality of living in Germany is in decline in recent years, unfortunately, as our government knows only how to waste money when economy boomed, but is completely incompetent what to do with growing challenges, and how to ensure its relevance and growth in future. Introducing new taxes every week is not a mark of competence.

I used to scoff but this might be part of it. I think asking for money is considered vulgar, at least subconsciously. Tall poppy syndrome is real too.

> I think the main reason is that life quality is really high in Europe (especially in Germany) so employees don't negotiate properly for their salary.

I think it is mainly supply/demand issue.

Throwaway because I founded a startup in Europe and don't want the name associated.

I blame European R&D subsidies for this. Basically anything you can imagine a software engineer doing can be subsidised by an EU Grant.

These grants are usually paid as a reimbursement for hours worked, i.e 42% up to a maximum of 100€/h including overheads. Therefore companies maximize hours by favoring multiple cheap engineers.

My hunch is that more jobs are salary capped due to this than immigration, and if the salaries actually went up then the job positions would basically evaporate.

Don't get me started by the ridiculous wastes that go into administrating these grant programs. I tell my European friends: Europe administrates its wealth away and saves whatever is left over.

This is true. I live in Bangalore and I see European companies paying like 30 - 40% more than what we get paid in India. This is so little when the cost of living and the cost of moving with your family are considered. It inevitably leads to the reduction in spending in those cities in Europe.

If Indians and Chineese can live there with the salary they get. Why can't you ? What makes you different ?

Indians & Chineese are buying foreign products in their countries. Why can't other countries accept goods(human resources) in return ? It's a global economy.

Indian and Chinese immigrants don't have family in the EU. They might have one later but they don't need a higher salary to support them when they first move to the EU.

Foreign products flood the local market and destroys local businesses. Eg: Walmart crushing local grocery stores in another country.

Here the product is human resources. Why is that a problem in the global economy. Have anti dumping or counter vailing for foreign labour too then ?

Salaries may not improve in Europe even if Visa restrictions are tightened, companies may set up offices in countries where wages are lower. I think the reason that western countries encourage high skill immigration is because it creates additional jobs to service the new workers: every new software engineer will need restaurants, cars, etc. These jobs can go to locals. Also, the taxes paid will go to the western governments to improve services for westerners.

EU companies rarely set up shop abroad since the culture here, driven by the lack of a common language like English prefers cultural similarly and physical proximity. That's why German companies prefer to do business with Swiss and Austrian companies and vice versa or how Norwegian companies prefer Danish or Swedish firms for example.

And if they do outsource something abroad it's usually nothing exciting, so local salaries should not dive.

For example, Microsoft has offices in Eastern Europe and India as well yet Seattle workers still make a killing.

> every new software engineer will need restaurants, cars, etc. These jobs can go to locals.

That's the most absurd thing I read today.

Of course they spend in the local markets and pay taxes. No?

H1 tightening is suggested as a reason for reduction in house prices in SV ... the uncertainty keeps folks from making the commitment. Prices of course are still high in the valley but multiple offers outside of a few cities are a thing of the past

> Importing people with wages under €50k disincentivizes employers from paying fair wages

Why would €42k not a fair wage? Looking at INSEE data, the median salary in France is €38409, 42k-50k to write API endpoints seems fair to me, what do you think would be appropriate?

You made my point. €42k may be a fair wage for writing APIs but it's in no way a skill or a salary you can claim there's a shortage on within the EU workforce like doctors for example, to justify importing external workers.

You say you have a shortage for API devs?

Then either:

1) pay more at which point you'll be flooded with aplicants and if not then you have a real claim for skill shortage with the government and can secure visas for immigrant workers or

2)train them yourself, there's plenty of motivated people of all ages willing to learn something that's in demand. Simples.

But what's that?! Investing in the workforce is too expensive for the shareholders?! Boo-hoo, my heart bleeds for the poor companies and their offshore accounts.

If there were not a shortage of API devs, salary for programmers wouldn’t have gone through the roof. You can’t just say because there are a couple million programmer there are definitely no shortage of them. The market demand just happened to be higher.

Since when is €42k salary considered as being through the roof?

That’s more of a chicken and egg problem. As you’ve said, if there were no foreign talent availability, prices would have been lot higher. Just look at the USA.

Whether you want to keep that is another thing in itself. From what I see, the availability for large amount of beginners (Not necessarily foreign, see bootcamp) does not affect the market value for experienced programmers at all.

Tech companies cluster in big cities, which are expensive. 50k in a small town is lots, 50k in London or Amsterdam is pocket money.

Yeah, so the EU should focus more on stimulating remote work instead of stuffing cities like the rest of the world.

While I agree that this needs to be the future, nearly all current development shows that this isn't the case - worldwide. I couldn't name a country with a strong software industry where it isn't concentrated in one or two large cities.

If we can figure out how to make remote work successful in general rather than in a few headline-grabbing examples, everyone here will be directly competing with people whose annual rent is less than your monthly rent.

That’ll be great for the world, but not for us — it’ll make this argument about €50k/year salaries depressing our wages seem bizarre to future generations.

If we follow that route, Spanish, Portuguese or Italians shouldn't be allowed to work in Germany... Germans shouldn't be allowed to work in Switzerland, etc...

Also, there are plenty of 50K-70K tech jobs in US - not everyone works in FAANG or lives in Bay Area.

Companies in Germany already have branches in those countries and they are paying almost half for the same job.

Besides, in tech, most of the time you get what you payed for. So if you lowball you will probably get low talent.

This is a global market, so you can also grab US jobs for half the pay and make alot of money anyway.

Depends, my ex employer got a really good deal on some workers from China who are working like crazy even on overtime, being grateful to just be in Europe even on below market salaries so it worked for him hence his focus to just recruit from there exclusively.

Most tech companies already have enough thinkers, to scale fast they just need more doers that execute orders quickly without rocking the boat or challenging the status quo.

You're not correct. EU citizens should be allowed to work anywhere in EU member states. That's fine, it's one of the founding principles of EU membership.

The problem is when EU companies have virtually no restrictions on hiring people outside the EU putting even more downward pressure on local salaries in high COL areas.

Companies will outsource, move development centers elsewhere etc etc. Visa restrictions alone aren't going to save anyones job. The world is too competitive.

The whole fear of outsourcing is a myth companies use to deregulate immigration and it needs to stop being used as fear mongering to justify lax regulations.

If outsourcing was so good why hasn't all of SV packed and moved abroad already to cheap countries or even to cheaper states in the US instead of offering insane salaries at home?

Companies stay in the west because of the ecosystem comprised of stable government, generous financing and skilled workforce.

If Airbus wants to hire 300 software engineers, good luck finding them in reasonable time periods in Germany or France. Local small niche firms can survive. The larger you get the longer it takes to hit hiring goal.

You will understand that only after you spend time actually hiring people. Telling the boss well I can't do this locally in 3 months, I need 6 plus a budget to relocate people from other EU locations will just get you laughed out of the room for the simple reason someone else in the org has already done it through outsourcing and importing people.

> Companies stay in the west because of the ecosystem comprised of stable government, financing and skilled workforce

This is probably 10-15 year old rhetoric that isnt true anymore. There are now dozens of hubs worldwide that make it simple to hire large number of people fast. Just make a trip and look at the scale at which they function.

The EU is doing the right thing by trying to pull more people in.

> If Airbus wants to hire 300 software engineers, good luck finding them in reasonable time periods in Germany or France.

Are you serious? Countries with traditions of engineering going back centuries, with some of the best schools in the field, will have trouble to find... 300 software engineers?

300 unemployed engineers, or you're just moving the hiring problem to the smaller companies with their engineers suddenly gone.

>If Airbus wants to hire 300 software engineers, good luck finding them in reasonable time periods in Germany or France.

Airbus can't find 300 engineers in Germany and France? Come on! More like Airbus can't find 300 engineers in Germany and France willing to work for peanuts. It's always the last part that gets lost in the translation.

Has Airbus thought about training said engineers instead of expecting them to magic themselves out of thin air whenever they're needed? Looking at their margins it's not like they can't afford it.

>The EU is doing the right thing by trying to pull more people in.

The EU is doing the right thing for Airbus shareholders, not for the local workforce.

:) You will find Airbus managers who agree with you BUT they compete for reaources with Airbus managers who don't.

This is an old debate and it's more or less a settled one in large orgs with large requirements whether in US or EU - the managers who don't care how they meet their goals win. You don't have to believe me, you just need to spend time talking to people who have run large teams in the EU and ask them how they survive.

The world is not getting any less competitive and mgmt in large orgs spend most of their day reacting rather than proactively doing anything. Smaller orgs it's easier but again they too are under pressure in different ways.

During this phase where many things are in flux and unstable it's a safer bet to move to where the jobs are then expecting the govt or corp s to do anything radical. They are too trapped even if they have competent ppl...anyway that's just my experience and opinion and I hope I am wrong.

Because outsourcing fails and is abandoned after two or three years, when the real costs have become apparent. The bastards that thought it up have moved up and out on the strengths of the initial cost savings by the time those chickens come home to roost.

You don't have to see this kind of cycle too many times before you get a little cynical.

I've been in the IT industry for close to 20 years now. Outsourcing as a factor is not significant in project failures.

Also, most outsourcing companies have been around for a while and are doing fairly well.

Outsourcing of IT duties (helpdesk, etc.) or outsourcing of software development? Those two are very different.

EU is just a yet another set of deals. Switzerland is not even a EU member - it has a yet another set of deals. There are reasons for such deals as with Blue card deals or similar. Preferring one deal over another just because of nationality or race is wrong.

Hiring restrictions to the EU exclusively have nothing to do with race but they do with nationality and there's nothing wrong with that.

As an EU national and EU taxpayer for decades, I expect to be a first class citizen of my region and the governing bodies to prioritize my well being first as much as I expect the US or Chinese or Indian governments to prioritize the well being of thier citizens first as opposed to mine.

Is it wrong if I can't get a work visa for SV? Or China? Or India?

> Is it a problem of race/nationality

It is, when you're saying that it is fine for Romanians or Polish to dump the market, but not Indians.

You see, now you're making it a problem of nationality.

EU membership allows free movement of capital, goods and workforce between EU states with equal rights. Singling out Romania and Poland means you have a personal problem with these nationalities.

Don't like it? Vote your country leaving the EU.

Oh, and FYI, Romanian tech salaries are some of the highest in EU where new grads can earn €2k NET due to a hot market and low taxes so your point about wage dumping doesn't hold.

That's still not good enough as compared to Zurich or Amsterdam. Or many other cities. Why stop at tech. Many Romanians and other poor EU immigrants move across Europe for all kind of jobs. I don't think you have thought this through and not realizing or outright ignoring xenophobia in your arguments.

Yeah, Zurich or Amsterdam pay more but have you thought about comparing the local taxes and COL before you made the argument? Insert another coin and try again.

€2k NET monthly in Poland or Romania as a new grad means you can buy a house immediately. How many houses can one newgrad buy in Zurich or Amsterdam?

>Many Romanians and other poor EU immigrants move across Europe for all kind of jobs.

And? What's wrong with that? It's part and parcel of EU membership. Western companies can also come to the East and straight up exploit the population.

Don't like it? Vote to leave the EU?

Any foreigner working in the EU also has to pay taxes, just like a citizen.

This is the way the world works, each country prioritizes the well-being of its own citizens. There is no other model that is known to work. The burden of proof is on those proposing unlimited freedom of movement to show that their model would work just as well or better.

As an EU citizen I'm well aware that the EU is full of inter-regional conflicts and xenophobia. Currently there's a very concerning shift to the political right, to protectionism and nationalism, partly fueled by the long-standing migration-related problems and more recent refugee "crisis".

Inviting even more people over from outside the EU would be like pouring fuel on the fire. I can't imagine what the politicians are thinking here... they can barely keep things under control as it is.

I think more of an issue with who they hire it should be more about the minimum amount they are allowed to pay. That will tilt the scale in favor of home players since they already know the language, local customs, work culture, etc.

In the DC metro area:

Starter salaries for new software development or RE/VR grads, straight out of college with 1-2 summer internships under their belt, is 80-100k. These are not your I got poached by FAANGs MIT or Stanford grads we're talking about, just regular UMD/Mason, etc... working at cyber contractors or small-medium size tech companies.

One of my coworkers used to live her dream of living in Amsterdam doing dev work for a year, while the experience was very relaxed and it was a fun city, she said she couldn't justify getting paid 30-40k a year in Europe when the pay was triple here.

> Do you think SV salaries would be as high as they are if they could import any workers hassle free?

Yes, given there are many companies paying SV salaries to remote devs from all over the planet. (Off the top of my head: Buffer, HotJar, Superside, Stack Overflow)

I thought HotJar positions advertised 70-90k, a number that would also be adjusted further based on cost of living.

That's in EUR, 90k EUR is ~100k USD.

That’s a big multiple below an SV salary.

SV != FAANG

Also everyone is conveniently picking the lowest paying company in the bunch.

> flooding the market with people who are happy to earn anything as long as they're allowed to live here is not a market I'd like to compete for work in as it increases the inequality putting all the gains in the hands of the employers.

Look at it from another perspective. You earn a lot, you have skills. You can save money, you can start a company yourself. As you say, people will be willing to work cheaply for you. This will allow you to provide cheap services to other people and you will get to benefit from it as much as you will want.

I understand that you personally may not want to start company. Too much risk, too much effort.

But maybe some of your colleagues would want to take on the challenge.

Why would you want to make it more difficult for them to hire people?

Think about the good that can be achieved by giving people opportunities.

Why this is not what everyone should want?

Problem is, there is internal migration in Europe which you can't possibly close this way. Romania is as poor as China and has better tech talent speaking European languages a lot better. No amount of visa restrictions will protect you from that.

"hire pretty much anyone across the globe" - well only if you are prepared to pay 1.5x average salary in your country (Blue Card), so not for cheap positions, will start from some like 50000 EUR net a year in Germany for example. Otherwise it's really pain in the ass procedure to get a normal work visa, or not possible at all (in some countries).

Romania or Eastern Europe is not the reason tech salaries are low in Europe as the country may be poor but tech workers there make almost as much as their counterparts in western Europe due to low taxes and high competition for talent. A Romanian tech grad can make €2k NET salary out of University which factoring the low COL is one of the reasons very few chose to migrate west nowadays.

Real reason of course, is that they can't pay more. Value they create is so much smaller due to the lower investment-driven leverage. Anyone who tried to raise VC funding in EU will confirm that.

You're decrying inequality, and supporting the ridiculous SV salaries in the same paragraph.

>> Do you think SV salaries would be as high as they are if they could import any workers hassle free?

There's nothing great about the wealth generated by the entire global digital industry being concentrated in a few cities.

I don't think it should be as hard as the US, but then again, there's endless abuse from the consulting companies there, and I believe that the salary floor, while it could be higher, goes a good way in curbing the abuse (in the EU)

I also think companies act naively in hiring, thinking it's just a matter of bringing people to fill seats (which might make sense for the "consulting companies"), also that cultural differences are easy to deal with (that goes both ways and it can either be good or bad)

I hear you! But let's engage in a conversation.

Would you rather believe in your own mental model of supply/demand or would you rather look at what happened in the real world?

There are really only 3 places in the world with booming tech. USA, China and India. EU is nowhere. One might ask why does China and India (with so-called flood of supply of engineers) developed technology so much faster than already developed EU?

The answer lies in answering that question. Why do you think EU is left behind?

I’m glad EU visa standards are super low. But for me thats just for access, European salaries are unattractive.

Outside of the EU but still Schengen area, tech hubs like Zug, Switzerland pay just as much as Silicon Valley, without massive federal income taxes all while the neighboring Eurozone is super cheap. State tax in Zug is like 7%

I’d never leave the sauna clubs!

> We have enough skilled workers in the EU.

No you don't. Companies have to prove that they couldn't find a person who fits the position before hiring. Otherwise they have to hire someone in EU.

Tho whole we couldn't find anyone in the EU for this job spiel that companies play is just a immigration scam approved with a rubber stamp by the authorities.

Let me fill you in on how it works:

Company puts up job ad with a salary so low no one in their right mind would even consider applying for. After 30 days of no applications(what a surprise) company goes to the local authorities and tells them that no one in the EU applied and that it's already hurting their business an suddenly, BAM!, working visa secured for the next gullible fool who doesn't know the market.

This abuse is so easy, every company does it and the government is ok with it as it keeps the companies happy.

>Company puts up job ad with a salary so low no one in their right mind would even consider applying for. After 30 days of no applications(what a surprise) company goes to the local authorities and tells them that no one in the EU applied and that it's already hurting their business an suddenly, BAM!, working visa secured for the next gullible fool who doesn't know the market.

Exactly this. And to make sure that no one applies, they add bogus requirements to the job like fluency in Russian/Hindi when hiring programmers. From the companies that I see doing this here, Red Hat seems to be the most egregious.

In Germany, local market check is not required for Blue Card applicants.

Which country are you talking about?

> as it increases the inequality

Really?! Speaking about inequality is so hypocritical in this context that it just boils my blood.

I could understand if you were having trouble to earn a living. But you can easily live in the Western Europe on even €30k. EASILY! And happily, and stress free. Your kids will get free education, free collage. You will get tons of vacations, 38 hours work week.

But no, you want more. You want luxury life, you want to keep the rest of the world underneath you.

Letting poor people compete with you on fair terms does not increase inequality. It undermines your position of power.

Western Europeans and their ancestors benefited greatly from conquest all over the world.

Are Indians and Chinese somehow second rate people? They do not deserve to even compete with the White Elite of Western Europe?

You should stop being egoist. Start your own company if you do not like being employee.

I think you're attacking a straw man here. Chinese and Indian people can certainly compete with European people, and they do it everyday. But they can do it from China and India.

The GP thinks its about "getting even", as if China and India were naive, noble backwaters the devious Europeans pulled the wool over and secretly exploited in 1700s.

When really, they got out competed in trade and on the battlefield by the Europeans.

So, it’s fair if a European gets out competed in the labor market today.

Of course it is. But it's not the European companies getting outcompeted, it's the individual laborers.

So it's equally as fair for those laborers (voters) to say "no more importing cheap competition". The UK already has. It's incredibly difficult to bring in foreign employees.

Edit, addendum, ignore the part about companies, though you'd said European firms.

By the governments and private corporations (like east India company) supported by the people ... Your comment implies as if bunch of people decided to colonise the entire world outside Europe on their own whims ...

The European governments and private corporations were made up of and supported by private citizens, were they not?

Back then, arguably not. “Who gets to vote” started out as a very small group.

>But you can easily live in the Western Europe on even €30k. EASILY!

I have trouble supporting a child in Greece, with a gross household income of around 50k.

I most certainly do not lead a luxurious life.

I shudder to think how this would work out in Western Europe where rents are even higher than the ~500 euro most people pay here for a medium sized apartment.

Something must be going horribly wrong in Greece. You can live easily of 30k in the Netherlands, I would make that to even 25k. Yes, that would mean having no car and using a bike to get around (which is common).

I think the key phrase in GP's post is "supporting a child".

In Netherlands that is probably subsidized.

Partly, yes. Still, parent paints a picture that in today's economic climate is not practically true.

I have (single living) colleagues from abroad who learn it now the hard way. Hopping from one airbnb to the other, moving al their stuff each time. Doing this for months and they start to despair now. Even local youngsters cannot afford a home anymore.

You cannot rent a home on that income in the public market. In the areas where you could bike to work that would mean waiting 15+ years for a social housing home. Renting a room in the back lands of NL is possible, but you would need a car because public transport is only somewhat useful in the Randstad area.

I might be exaggerating, but I feel like I'm not.

Most parents I know pay almost 600 for rent (amenities not included, so add another 100, and quite a bit more if it's a colder winter). Fun to note that the minimum wage is currently around 500 euro, AirBnB is a hell of a drug. Add to that up to 400 for childcare a month, per young child.

Tax rate is near 40% at that income level, so let's say it's a net 30k out of the 50k. So that's 2.5k a month.

I will spare a list of the other required monthly expenses but it shouldn't be hard to see that it's hard to save up enough to ever buy property or to be safe against any event that costs any significant amount of money.

> "Something must be going horribly wrong in Greece."

Something has most definitely gone horribly wrong in Greece a couple of years ago. I remember hearing that the costs of living in Greece at the time were not a bit lower than then expensive parts of western Europe, whereas wages for young people were quite a lot lower, making it practically impossible for young people to earn a living.

We haven't heard much about Greece in recent years, so maybe things have improved, but this sounds like maybe they haven't.

I don't think so. Maybe in the rural areas or well connected outskirts, if you own the housing. No chance you're living in Amsterdam on 30k and support a family without any problems.

You’re on roughly triple the average household income for Greece. You may have trouble supporting a child in a manner appropriate to someone of your socioeconomic background.

> The average household net-adjusted income in Greece is USD 17, 700 annually. It is considerably lower than the OCED average of USD 33,604.

https://destinationscanner.com/average-salary-in-greece/

> The Gross Domestic Product per capita in Greece was last recorded at 25140.70 US dollars in 2018, when adjusted by purchasing power parity (PPP). (Roughly €22K)

https://tradingeconomics.com/greece/gdp-per-capita-ppp

Ehh it might just be that the cost of living in some parts of Greece are much lower than in others, making the average salary much lower than the requisite for covering cost of living for more expensive regions.

Numbeo seems to support this based on CoL in Athens: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/in/Athens

I think everything is relative. I have met and I know many indians that have a lifestyle that we (Europeans) would never follow or think about. That's probably the "luxury" that the parent comment is talking about. As usual, this is where two cultures tend to diverge. For "them" we live a stressful lifestyle, etc., etc., because we need to make money. For "us", they have a laid back lifestyle that we can't understand: how do you want to provide for your 4 kids, when you have so little money? Etc etc.

Unfortunately, this sort of thinking is very persistent in people coming from such countries that tend to see us as "weak" or "luxurious" people, because such a lifestyle is light years away from where they come from. I don't say this with the "white mindset". It's just that we Western people are talking about reducing the working hours to 30 per week, because we want to spend more time with our family, want to live stress-free, etc. etc., and possibly keep a good salary. This clashes with the old traditional capitalistic way of doing business: let's hire cheap labor from abroad, so we make more money. The main parent comment is right about it. It's proven that this doesn't lead to anything than more cheap labor.

You are right on that, it's a difference of perspective in a lot of these cases. I personally very well could subsist on bulk prepared, cheaper food, go out or visit family very rarely, never pay for a gym membership or for a music tutor or for dance lessons or for children's activities. But from my point of view that's insane, and those are basic things that you will spend some amount of money once you can afford it on to have a life worth living.

Luxury to myself means luxury goods (status symbols such as cars, phones etc. or even best-in-class functional items with increased cost compared to value-for-money alternatives), frequent travel etc. all of which I can't afford.

I wonder though if this goalpost would move even further if my income ever increased, or this mindset is well, set, from our upbringing.

Oh BTW, I also have met very ambitious Indians that work way harder than Europeans. So, take my precious words with a grain of salt.

I guess, I should speak to my experiences only.

My mother alone, as a cleaning lady, was fully supporting me on 30 000 salary in Belgium, Leuven. But as a cleaning lady, earning that money was not easy, or stress free. She was doing 50-60 hours weeks. I know cleaning ladies, my mother colleagues, who as a single mother support their kids and sometimes even manage to spare some money to send back home. I know that there are also people exploiting western social programs to the extend that they manage to live exclusively on child support. My mother has a neighbor who was laughing that she is silly to work, because she has Belgian fiancée and she should live off social support. And, yes, this type of people should be deported in my opinion.

Right now, I'm studying now in Maastricht, Netherlands and I work 1 day a week earning 8k gross a year. I'm living with my fiancée in apartment with one bedroom and I spent around 10k a year.

Portugal is also Western Europe, its pretty cheap

>But you can easily live in the Western Europe on even €30k. EASILY! And happily, and stress free.

Yeah, please take me and my family to this magic lala land. You can also survive on the streets with no money. That doesn't mean it's a lifestyle you should aspire to.

I don't know why this being downvoted so much. A family requires a lot more money than being single. Are so many people here single without children that don't know or care about this?

Raising children on 30k€ in a city in Western Europe is scratching on the government defined poverty line.

> Raising children on 30k€ in a city in Western Europe is scratching on the government defined poverty line.

What do you base this on? Based on [0], the poverty threshold in Germany is €13.152/year, and Germany is one of the richer EU nations. Even if that’s a working single parent and one child, €30k isn’t scratching the poverty line.

[0] https://m.dw.com/en/germanys-minimum-wage-is-barely-above-th...

We need to stop taking government statistics as de facto goalposts.

Just because the German government says you can live on €13.152/year doesn't make it a fact.

Government numbers also says inflation is 2.6% last year but if I look closely, my bills and mandatory expenses have gone up way more than that.

That article states that Romanians are best off in the EU when it comes to living on minimum wage, while I can tell you that it's definitely not like that in the real world.

Lots of the time statistics are made with a formula tailored by the government to fit a certain political agenda.

30k is gross and 13k is net income, those are very different things.

You also only looked at the poverty line for singles, not for couples (or single parent) with children. But you are in good company in this thread as nearly nobody takes children into account. Raising children on the poverty line is not the right way.

The poverty line is defined as 60% of median income, not by needs. In the UK there is also the phrase “living wage” which seems to be about needs rather than relative wealth, but I don’t know enough German to get past the opening paragraph of news (I have the German vocabulary of an 8-year-old, which is somehow all you seem to need for CEFR B1) so if an equivalent exists here, I don’t know it yet.

Fair point about gross/net:

€13.152 times two people = €26.304, and for reference €30k gross, category 2, one child = 21.018,18 € net, so about €5k short if that’s how family poverty is defined.

You cannot work with both parents fulltime when you have a toddler. Childcare is often only open 8 hours a day, so working 8 hours is not possible (remember mandatory breaks) and you also have to pay a lot for it. Also, single parents are increasingly common.

Poverty often means that you cannot afford a new washing machine when one breaks. Or not it being able to send your children to school trips.

As a German, I can tell you: 30k€ is not enough to raise a child here, even if both parents are working because at least one cannot work full-time.

I’m agreeing with you. And to an even greater degree if that’s €30k split between two adults and a child.

>Letting poor people compete with you on fair terms does not increase inequality.

It certainly contributes to brain drain which helps maintain inequality between countries.

That is, unless there are fiscal transfers to India I'm unaware of to help pay for the educations their government pays for and western employers use...

>But no, you want more. You want luxury life, you want to keep the rest of the world underneath you.

Is the US also wanting me underneath them by not giving me a work Visa to work at FAANG in SV?

>Is the US also wanting me underneath them by not giving me a work Visa to work FAANG?

Arguably yes based on his comment.

And for the record, you can work for several FAANG companies in the EU. Why not just start working?

> EASILY! And happily, and stress free. Your kids will get free education, free collage. You will get tons of vacations, 38 hours work week.

Most Europeans can’t afford a house anymore. The fear for a lot is that excess immigration and taking on refugees will break the social welfare you just mentioned.

I actually agree with a lot of your points though and envision a similar future that will be less about borders.

But you wrap it in such a vicious rant I imagine you are alienating people from your idea more than winning them over.

I know that I got emotional. But to be honest, I think emotions are sometimes important to make the point clear.

> The fear for a lot is that excess immigration and taking on refugees will break the social welfare you just mentioned.

I understand that fear. As I was responding to another person in this thread, I know people ruthlessly exploiting western social programs to the extend that they manage to live exclusively, or almost exclusively on welfare. My mother has a neighbor who was laughing that she is silly to work, because she has Belgian fiancée and she should live off social support.

But that is not the type of argument that was made originally.

The original comment was by an entitled software developer, who hides behind equality.

> Most Europeans can’t afford a house anymore.

Many people say it, but I never seen a good analysis of that issue. If you have data to back that up I would be very happy to see it. That's something that I wanted to research for some time. My biggest question is whether it was really so easy before, or is it just still difficult. Is the issue related to immigration? Or is it due to regulations? Or something else?

> But no, you want more

Don't you? And since you also do doesn't it make the rest of your point not only moot but also hypocritical? Isn't this the exact reason someone would move from a poorer country to a richer one? Not because they can't live in one but because they want a better life in the other. You can easily live without a lot of things. But sometimes it's not only about living but about how you live.

> Letting poor people compete with you on fair terms does not increase inequality.

You're being very libertine with the suggestion that everyone else in this conversation hates "poor people" and must be racists. "Fair terms" would imply all equal. Are you competing on quality or price? Because winning solely on price is a sure way to lower everyone's wages over time but also lower the quality. Doesn't this push better qualified people to places where "fairness" implies more than accepting the lowest possible salary?

> Are Indians and Chinese somehow second rate people? They do not deserve to even compete with the White Elite of Western Europe?

This makes you sound incredibly racist.

> But you can easily live in the Western Europe on even €30k. EASILY! And happily, and stress free.

If that was the case, birthrates wouldn't be so low in Europe. Free school and healthcare doesn't support your family when rents are higher than ever and fewer people than ever can afford to buy a property to raise a family in.

I haven't seen any evidence that birthrates have anything to do with having a high income in developed economies. All the evidence I have seen points in the other direction, where when women's education and career are de-emphasized by the society, the birthrates are high.

If you live in the EU, downshift! With stable $30k you can easily buy a seaside villa in Bulgaria on a 7 year credit with today rates.

I've come to the conclusion that the economics are only part of the story.

Unless one is single, there's a ton of stuff you have to worry about, from finding a job for the spouse, to learning the language, subtle to not so subtle xenophobia, navigating a different social & political system, etc. Moving with kids makes things even more complicated, to the point that we essentially only have migration from poorer to richer countries. I'd wager immigration from the west to the east is almost zero. I know some cases, but it's a tiny minority.

Then there's the fact that most people don't want to live in another country, surrounded by foreigners speaking a language they will almost certainly never speak fluently themselves.

Low birthrate isn't caused by high rent, but by a highly educated population and an economic system where kids aren't necessary to take care of you when you get old.

Says who? Meaningless statistics?

Talking to my circles of highly skilled couples most cite money as the primary reason they're putting off having children.

Most people I know who don't have children simply aren't interested in having children. And they can afford not to have children, so they don't.

Sounds like anecdotal evidence to me so I rather put my faith in the statistics.

“and an economic system where kids aren't necessary to take care of you when you get old.”

Until you get terminal cancer and you are sent home to die. Then, I assure, a “kid” might be useful, because nobody else will give a flying fuck.

Ok, neo-liberal shill.

We've banned this account for breaking the site guidelines. Please don't create accounts to do that with.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

> But no, you want more. You want luxury life, you want to keep the rest of the world underneath you.

Why does wanting more imply having people underneath you?

Your comment is full of frustration, hatred and anger, it doesn't have any argument in it. I hope you can see that.

The main issue stems from the fact that Europeans have a different lifestyle, therefore, moving forward for them implies having actually higher wages, not lower ones, in order to have at the end of the month some free days of vacation, health insurance for the family, etc etc.

The comment you are answering to says exactly that. It didn't mention anything like "let's send them back" or whatever it is, as you seem to imply with your words. It was an honest observation (backed up by economists, by the way, just google that) about the fact that by giving more work to people who get less money won't do anything else than lowering the salaries for the entire sector. Of course, it will give people from other countries a possibility to work and make it, however, as a local citizen wishing to improve my country and the average income, why would I care about people coming from other countries? I mean, what do I get in return?

> however, as a local citizen wishing to improve my country and the average income, why would I care about people coming from other countries? I mean, what do I get in return?

The main point of contention is not about whether this would improve the quality of life of the average EU programmer. It is about concealing what is just naked self-interest (i.e. concern about one's own wages) with noble talk of 'inequality'. I don't think there's anything wrong with concern for one's own interests, but trying to phrase it as a worry about something else comes off as a bit disingenuous.

Secondly, this just smacks of protectionism. If everyone thought the same way, we would have nowhere close to the diverse array of goods available to the modern consumer at such low prices.

What's wrong with self interest and protectionism?

My family comes first.

I don't want to be part in the salary race to the bottom for the sake of lower prices and consumerism.

"it increases the inequality putting all the gains in the hands of the employers."

That was not noble talk of global inequality, they meant it increases inequality on the labor market between capital and workers. So it was also a self-interested (and correct) statement.

You're confusing protectionism with protecting one's borders. Protecting one's borders and awarding more rights to the country's own population than to the rest of the world is the status quo and the only recipe for success we know.

> why would I care about people coming from other countries? I mean, what do I get in return?

This is a pretty stunning question.

Most people care about people other than ourselves. Most people sometimes do things to benefit others, even if they don't "get in return", as you put it, and they expect others to behave similarly. For example:

1. A billion people base their religious beliefs on venerating the self-sacrifice of God dying and/or giving-His-only-begotten-son to help others.

2. Most people believe that people other than themselves can have subjective experiences of joy and pain. Most people would take a little time out of their day, for instance, to help an abandoned, injured infant, even if they would never "get anything in return" for their selfless act; even though the infant can't promise them anything in return or prove that they are suffering, people see a suffering child and feel a sort of basic level of empathy.

3. Almost everyone who has political opinions is arguing not primarily about themselves, but about people more vulnerable than them who are being hurt by existing policy or will be helped by new policy - usually large classes of people that the arguer will never meet.

4. The idea that other people matter is so incredibly common, we diagnose people who cannot experience it with a medical condition sometimes informally called "sociopathy"

So I'm going to assume you know that most people expect you to care about people other than yourself, and I'm going to assume that you actually do care about people other than yourself.

Now try to imagine what it would be like to extend that empathy to foreigners.

That's it. That's the whole trick.

Good luck!

If you believe this—truly—is it safe to assume you support open borders for Israel?

Rich to hear Indians feeling entitled to EU immigration when the Indians just happily passed a law against Muslim immigration.

Letting poor muslims compete with you on fair terms does not increase inequality. It undermines your position of power.

Its good to understand history. India and Pakistan were partitioned based on Religion. Muslims under Jinnah decided that Muslims cannot live in a united country and partitioned United India. Millions were killed during that transition in 1947. Same with Bangladesh in 1906. Things were settled long time back once and partition is a one-time affair. Is it not?

> when the Indians just happily passed a law against Muslim immigration

That's because of the current Fascists govt who is hell bent on copying 1984, China & Nazis.

Most Indians do not support this law.

Most? Any data to backup?

Not everyone agrees with that law. In fact there are massive protests against it with dozens dead.

I get the impression from your rant that you're dismissing the parents comments core complaint about the adverse impact of increased labor supply on the middle class and then follow on to namecalling. This style of commentary seems beneath HN's aspirational high signal low noise.

As an engineer, isn't life in Asia more luxurious because you can easily afford a maid and other amenities? Seriously, what's the benefit of moving into Western Europe?

Freedom of speech and action. Less corruption. Clean air and environment. More social protections.

No corruption for basic services, access to decent education, property rights and if in the US, money.

Although the access to education is now being heavily gated by property values in countries like US.

> But no, you want more. You want luxury life, you want to keep the rest of the world underneath you.

No, I want the country I live in to act in the interest of its own citizens and not of the interest of India. After all, I pay masses of taxes, so I think it is not unfair to expect my government to not work towards making sure I get paid even less than I do now.

Hey man, why you have to burn someone so hard that they curl up in their bed crying tears of agony like a little pussy?

Slow clap

Your comment breaks many of the site guidelines. That's not ok, regardless of how wrong or bad some other comment is (or you feel it is). Would you mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and using this site as intended? Flamewar rants, personal attacks, and denunciatory rhetoric are no way to persuade anyone, let alone to have curious conversation, which is what this site is for.

It's clear that you have good reasons for feeling strongly on this topic, and I definitely don't mean to disrespect that. But it's necessary to post respectfully and with dignity in order to properly represent one's point of view on a topic like this. If you stoop to just flaming the other side, you end up discrediting the very truth that you're trying to express (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...).

True. I will rewrite it in a better style.

Thanks for the work you are doing!

Appreciated!

This eu madness, mainly drive by germany, to allow mass migration due to a lack “of labour” needs to end. I welcome immigrants but they are heavily abused by means of lower wages, and it depresses local wages as well.

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