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Comment by gwbas1c | Hacker News Reader

> "The Santa Hat on vscode insiders and pushing of religion is very offensive to me, additionally xmas has cost millions of Jews their lives over the centuries, yet even if that was not the case, pushing religious symbols as part of a product update is completely unacceptable," the user wrote. "Please remove it immediately and make it your top priority. To me this is almost equally offensive as a swastika."

Santa is about as non-religious as you can get. IMO, I think Microsoft really put their foot in their mouth on this one.

Edit: Because I can't let this go, it's important to point out that what we find offensive is subjective. I wonder if whoever wrote that is really just trolling Microsoft, or just has an axe to grind.

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This was an obvious troll. Looks like they succeeded. A shame.

Right? Clearly riffing on the 'happy holidays' message. I think it's a pretty funny post, and it's even more funny that it was taken seriously.

Someone could go stalk their account to check, I can't be bothered with that right now.

They guy hasn't actually created much, though the account is fairly old. Most of the repos are forks of others with no changes. It looks like a real person, but his name is Christian, which is not a likely name for a Jew. His repos got brigaded and he claimed his grandfather fought for the Germans on the Eastern front after "kick[ing] some Gestapo ass" [0]. This part is obviously malarkey, and convinces me he's a troll.

[0] https://github.com/Christian-Schiffer/servicelayer.chat/issu...

It looks like a real person

Appearances can be deceiving... even the profile photo could be generated and not a picture of a real human, as this other item currently prominently on the front page reveals:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21847051

No need for all that effort. The profile photo was just lifted from somewhere else; see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21847902.

I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian and I am offended by Santa, which has nothing to do Christianity and it's nothing but a blatant display of overconsumption, wastefulness, not to mention the environmental impact of all this, which, against, goes well against Christianity, modesty, and actually conflicts with the Nativity Fast. Will I file an issue? No, never. It's childish, it's silly, it's not something an engineer should ever do. By the way, I'm offended by the plastic eggs and bunnies around Easter as well. None of these holidays are religious and here in Orange County, Southern California, I see many Muslims and Jews decorating their houses with the pseudo-Christian symbols as well. Every act will affect at least one person - I expected Microsoft to think about this starting this tradition and ending it. You can't make everybody happy, period!

I disagree with you. What's childish about filing an issue with something that offends you?

> it's not something an engineer should ever do.

But what if it wasn't Santa but it was like a different religious icon - like a menorah? I feel like literally thousands of American christians would have banned using VSCode or even Microsoft products for something like that.

But what if I am offended that somebody finds my beliefs offensive?! I am not offended by other religions in any way whatsoever - I respect their rights as much as I want them to respect mine. The whole America is decorated for Hellowing, Christmas, and Easter - VS Code is people's least problem! And, as I stated, I can feel totally offended, but I'm not. I feel offended by Helloween, which all liberals celebrate, although it's has Roman-Catholic origins, it's against Christianity's principles, it has a huge environmental impact, and it greatly disturbs me personally, but I honor the rights of others to enjoy it. Should I be offended by nowadays Germans because in the past they killed my ancestors? Please, grow up! History is to learn from it, not to avenge for things way back in the past. Enough snowflakes among the engineers! I can't forget that master-slave "offensiveness" still!

It's childish because:

A) It ignores entirely the modern day usage of the Santa hat (it is not really a religious symbol, it is more like a general holiday symbol)

B) Even if it were, say, a menorah, it could mean that the developers are Jewish. Why would someone of a different religion celebrating the holidays offend you? That would imply to me that you're intolerant of other religions.

C) It was obviously not placed there with bad intentions. It is clearly intended to be festive and fun.

D) It is a waste of developer resources to remove something they just added in.

E) It devalues issues that people with genuine offenses might raise in the future, i.e. the boy who cried wolf.

Even if it were, say, a menorah, it could mean that the developers are Jewish.

That reminds me of another "cultural artifact in software" with an interesting backstory --- T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM.

You know what's even better? Not getting offended. Let people do what they want. And specifically for vscode, it's a button that makes the editor snow. Just enjoy it. Or don't. But definitely don't make it worsr for anyone else. Lot's of other apps do similar things. Lot's of people decorate. I hope no one goes around reporting apps and people for what they put on display.

I think the person who posted this was a bit silly, but you can't be serious about Santa being non-religious, can you?

He's literally a saint in every form of Christianity that has saints.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas

Are you sure Santa and Saint Nicholas are the same? In Germany we celebrate Saint Nicholas on December 6th, while Santa brings presents on December 24th (Christmas Eve).

The modern mythos of Santa is based on Saint Nicholas:

https://www.history.com/topics/christmas/santa-claus

Yes it is the same. Santa Claus comes from Sinterklaas which is Dutch for Saint Nicholas.

Saint Nicholas is hardly the same as "Santa", which has his own wikipedia page [1]. Modern day Santa has some partial roots in Saint Nicholas (as well as a few other figures), but other than the sometimes-used moniker of "Saint Nick", has very little to do with the actual saint. Santa is the one associated with the red hat, while Saint Nicholas has no such association. The only real link between the two is that Saint Nicholas was known for gift-giving and so is Santa, but I hope we aren't about to label gift-giving as a religious activity...

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Claus

I'm not sure it makes sense to ask if Santa Claus is "the same" as Saint Nicholas. It is a mythic figure which have developed over time. It is like asking if Dracula is "the same" as Vlad Tepes.

The red hat has nothing to do with Christianity though. It was created in the late 1800s and then popularised by Coca Cola in the 1930s. If the VS Code team had put a bishop's mitre on the update cog the complaint would be more reasonable.

The red hat is clearly associated with Christmas which is a Christian holiday. The complaint is silly, but we should not counter that by ridiculous claims like saying a Santa hat has nothing to do with Christmas. I think the red had originates from "Father Christmas" rather than Sct Nicolaus, but in any case it is clearly associated with Christmas.

And so what if it is (even if slightly)? What's offensive about that? Who is hurt by that? (I'm an atheist, so I’m hardly a defender of shoving religious values down people’s throats)

Honestly I think he is trolling, but if you are interested you can read the original complaint.

Saint Nicholas, the bishop who lived in ancient Greece, is a saint, venerated in every form of Christianity that has saints.

I don't think that Santa Claus, the mythological person who lives at the North Pole and has elves to make toys, is venerated by any Christian denomination.

Protestants in Germany introduced the tradition of "Kristkind" (Baby Jesus) bringing gifts at Christmas because the tradition of Saint Nicholas was problematic for protestants.

Was that the tradition of St Nicholas, the saint, or "Saint Nicholas"/Kris Kringle/Father Christmas = Santa Claus, the cookie-eating guy with a red hat thatdeveloped mostly after the 18th century?

I'm not sure I understand what you are asking - are you considering St Nicolas and "Saint Nicholas" two unrelated figures? Obviously the figure developed over time.

Though he was a saint the symbology has been non-religious for some time. It's not just Christians that celebrate with Santa. In fact, most of the non-religious people I know celebrate with Santa. Even when you tie it to a saint the overall meaning of Santa has nothing to do with God or Christians.

People like to be offended and will ruin things for other people. It's sad that we're in such a sensitive society but tolerance isn't what is practiced, sensitivity is.

As a Christian I find the idea of Santa offensive, honestly. Santa and his powers (as presented in media) are a replacement for God. I'm not going to go crying to anybody because they have Santa as an icon.

> the symbology has been non-religious for some time

In the US, sure. In many other countries the related symbology is still heavily linked to "Saint Nicholas", not "Santa Claus".

The name doesn't make it religious though, it's the people that celebrate Christmas and their use of Saint Nicholas/Santa Claus/etc.

Santa drives around in a grossly polluting truck delivering obesity-water to children. He's a monster, not a saint.

And it's powered by high-sulphur diesel made from fermented reindeers and children's tears. ;)

Don't forget getting children drunk on rum eggnog made from molested cows and unfertilized dinosaur descendant's ovums.

> Santa is about as non-religious as you can get.

Of course he's religious, it's a mascot for a Christian holiday. Don't confuse American commercialism's exploitation of Christmas & Santa with its religious roots.

Christmas's roots are from pagan traditions around the new year's. They were christianized for many reasons.

Gift giving around the end of the year has been around since before 0 BC.

(And before someone screams "citation needed," I'll just say that it's well known, and if you didn't know it by now, there's a thing called Google and Wikipedia that you can go look at.)

> Christmas's roots are from pagan traditions

So? Most religious traditions were stolen, whoop de do. What matters is how they're practiced in 2019, in which case Christmas is almost synonymous with Christianity.

> I'll just say that it's well known

There is no actual confidence in how all of this stuff came to be, just a lot of conjecture - and so no, it's not well known at all.

Take a look at the comments in this thread about how non-christians observe Christmas.

Christianity has no monopoly on Christmas.

Except they practice gift-giving without any of the rest that comes along with - that's not Christmas, that's commercial exploitation. Big difference.

They call it Christmas though. So it is not your version of Christmas but theirs. Also you can't be certain it is commercial exploitation. What if some you are referring to give mostly homemade and charitable gifts. Certainly would be the minority but you are lumping a lot of people together.

It seems contradictory for you to say in your previous comment that Christmas as practiced in 2019 by Americans doesn't matter when discussing Santa because of the religious roots, and then follow that up by saying the history of the religious roots don't matter because they're practiced differently in 2019.

> (And before someone screams "citation needed," I'll just say that it's well known, and if you didn't know it by now, there's a thing called Google and Wikipedia that you can go look at.)

Lots of beliefs are "well known" and nevertheless wrong. Just look at all the people, even in this thread, claiming that Santa Claus was invented by Coca Cola, even though a simple google image search will reveal illustrations of Santa from before Coco Cola was founded. As for the pagan traditions around new years they are not very well documented and a lot is speculation.

Of course gift-giving is known throughout history, but the figure of Santa Claus is associated with the Christian celebration. I'm pretty sure you wont find any reference to Santa Claus or Father Christmas from before Christianity!

Modern Santa was invented by Coca Cola based very loosely on St Nicholas. In American Gods he'd be the God of Capitalism I guess.

As a symbol of American capitalism it's rather fitting that Microsoft are using him.

St Nicholas (sinterklaas) is celebrated in The Netherlands on 6th of December. You may remember it from The Daily Show and other US TV outlets who were covering the archaic tradition of black face in the celebrations.

It is a myth that Coca Cola invented Santa Claus. He was a well-known figure in the US before Coca Cola stated using him.

Bringing nature indoors, celebrating the Yule, and Santa were all pilfered from pagan and Norse people.

Santa Claus was pilfered from pagan and Norse people? I find that hard to believe.

It's a holiday widely celebrated by non-Christians. People mostly care about the gift giving bit, alcohol, and food, rather than any religious angle.

You see similar things going on for Valentine's day, Easter, Saint Patricks day, etc. Sure, there is a religious aspect, but the non-religious celebration is dominant.

I work on a globally-distributed team.

My colleagues in India had a Christmas celebrations in their office. I asked them if they celebrated it growing up, and they told me they first started celebrating it in University.

We have Diwali parties in our US office. Everyone has fun.

But St. Nicholas et al. did not start with Christianity - isn't the myth of 'Santa' an amalgam of all kinds of different pagan cultures and traditions? It seems like the whole 'Christmas' holiday is mostly an artifact of the church trying to tie together wide and diverse groups of people under their umbrella.

I guess you could use a snowflake or a cornucopia or something as a generic 'winter holiday' thing, and people have been doing that for awhile; "Happy Holidays" usurped "Merry Christmas" decades ago. Or you could use a bevy of emojis representing the holiday's secular roots, but would it have been better if they added emojis for St. Nick's mythological companions like Belshnickel, Zwarte Pete, and Krampus next to the santa hat? Maybe if they really wanted to polish this essential feature for production use, they could have different emoji sets for different holidays and a modal to choose which one you wanted.

I dunno, I feel so bad for people who haven't had the drive to do anything fun or playful beaten out of them yet. "Cry, the beloved country, for the unborn child that's the inheritor of our fear."

> "Happy Holidays" usurped "Merry Christmas" decades ago.

There are people who find "Happy Holidays" offensive, as they consider it part of the manufactured war on Christmas.

I guess this is why politics and holidays don't mix!

I dont understand why the response

"Dear <user>, We apologize if you found the icon offensive. Please be assured that no offense was intended. Thank you for bringing up the issue so we could clear things up."

Was not a sufficient response and an end to the conversation? Leave the icon where it is. Now that the user knows that the icon wasn't meant as an offense, he can move on with his life.

If he finds the swastika offensive, he shouldn't visit India. Swastikas are everywhere. The context matters.

I find non-apology apologies offensive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology

>Saying "I'm sorry you feel that way" to someone who has been offended by a statement is a non-apology apology. It does not admit there was anything wrong with the remarks made, and may imply the person took offense for hypersensitive or irrational reasons. Another form of non-apology does not apologize directly to the injured or insulted party, but generically "to anyone who might have been offended".

>Ifpology: Attorney and business ethics expert Lauren Bloom, author of The Art of the Apology, mentions the "if apology" as a favorite of politicians, with lines such as "I apologize if I offended anyone". Comedian Harry Shearer has coined the term Ifpology for its frequent appearances on "The Apologies of the Week" segment of Le Show.

I am sorry you find non-apology apologies offensive, but that is all we have to offer. We're sorry we couldn't do better. ;)

On a more serious note though. It is cool that there is a label for something like this, but to me it is just a polite way of de-escalation. You could be confrontational and say "I didn't do anything wrong, you're the one who is wrong to think what I did was wrong!" or you can say "I'm sorry you thought what I did was wrong, but my intention was not to wrong you or anyone.".

There is nothing wrong with being polite and tactful.

>xmas has cost millions of Jews their lives over the centuries

Can someone fill me in on what this is referring to. I know my history knowledge is a bit lacking but I normally am able to get references like this so I must have missed something.

My IMO is that if you're getting heat from users over the equivalent of an easter egg it doesn't really matter whether they're trolls or not, it's much easier to just remove or tone down the egg to make the problem go away. Having arguments about it is a waste of energy. Yes, it's kind of depressing or frustrating, but this is the nature of online discourse in 201x.

Whether or not the complaint is genuine is also much harder to figure out than "is it sufficient to replace this with a snowflake"

It would've been far easier to just ignore it. As the old saying goes, "don't feed the trolls".

It's entirely unnecessary to make the problem (Santa hat) go away.

The complaining person is displaying abusive behavior and should be treated as such. Warn them. Then ban them if they persist. You stand up to bullies or you drown in them.

Mods can trivially and entirely disregard the non-problem (as it actually is). They're choosing not to and are making a community handling mistake in the process.

The only proper response is to ignore the complaint as not meaningful enough to warrant action. Otherwise you'll eventually have to remove every possible symbol. Somewhere, someone's mother was murdered by a cog and they feel very, very sensitive about the matter.

Abusive behavior in communities occurs at both extremes. You can be too sensitive in social situations in fact, to such a degree that you abuse other people with your need to control your environment specifically to your aggressively selfish satisfaction.

It amuses me that it is an 'Easter egg' another similarly confusing conflation of a Christian holiday with the commercialization of that holiday.

> Santa is about as non-religious as you can get.

Not really, see https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2018/12/131219-santa... and https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/51928?lang=bi for very different perspectives.

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