Hacker News Reader

Comment by NPMaxwell | Hacker News Reader

Part of the change is due to the appearance of alternative powered vehicles. In Tokyo, it seems like every mother is riding an electric cargo bike with covered seating for two kids and room for groceries -- the minivan of bicycles. In Seattle, the morning commute is full of electric skateboards, scooters, onewheels, and wheelchairs. It looks doable.

View on HN

How do those work in winter? We had electric scooters, but they were all scooped up by their parent companies in October ahead of the coming months of hell.

Mostly fine, sometimes a problem. It's pretty much like regular bikes (or cars for that matter): some might not work well if there is significant snow/ice, but then you will just need one that is suitable for those sort of conditions. The scooter companies are putting out very low end models that aren't designed for any sort of adverse conditions, and they are scared of lawsuits/blowback from accidents.

This sort of transportation is in its infancy. Bikes are in a better place, and we have bikes that can ride fairly safely on full on snow.

I hope e-scooters never make it out of infancy. Bikes are infinitely more practical and capable. They are more stable at all speeds. They can have significantly more cargo carrying capacity. Bikes can be fitted (for the most part) with different tires/wheels to handle adverse conditions more easily than a scooter can.

I hope for the infanticide of e-scooter transportation. It's a grotesque, subooptimal solution than exists in spite of a superior low-cost offering that is faaaar more mature.

I bought a non-electric, but large-wheeled kick scooter a few months ago for getting around NYC.

I absolutely love it. Bikes are a little annoying to stop and start; "walking" your bike for a short stretch requires physically dismounting. My scooter allows me to constantly transition between standing, walking, and riding as environmental conditions require.

Also... it's stupid, but if I have to wear a helmet to do something, I'm not going to do it. I can't imagine riding a bike without a helmet, because it would be too easy to hit a bump and fall over. On my scooter, however, I feel relatively safe without a helmet. There have been a couple times when I've lost control of my scooter for some reason or another, but because I'm basically standing, I've just kind of jumped off.

I basically agree. In my experience as a rider of one, the main downside of urban kick scooters is that they lack infrastructure. They're too slow to be bikes and play in traffic, but their existence tends to offend and frighten pedestrians, even though their control over acceleration is quite good, about as good as someone running. That quality makes them chimerical, one of the most unpredictable users of the road, and one of the factors in me hanging it up was having my day ruined by people getting upset at me.

The biggest real dangers come from grooves and potholes(I took a spill that needed stitches in my younger days, trying to ride inside a groove) and from using pedestrian infrastructure at speed(cross-traffic can lead to near-misses where the car doesn't expect you to jump out so fast, or the bike expects you to plow through and you stop instead).

The electrics are a nifty invention, but also one that makes their character more like bikes. They fit in a little better as all-purpose transports, but they also lack the simple convenience of a light kick scooter.

Hackerish tip for a fellow kick scooter rider. You can replace the bearings in most kick scooters with skateboard bearings for an easier ride. Most COTS ball bearings, aren’t optimized for force along the radius, skateboard bearings are. Also ceramic bearings don’t have the same thermal expansion which comes into play on a two wheel scooter. I have one of the small-wheeled ones with good bearings and it kicks ass—and it only weighs 4 pounds.

All that said, you are only more comfortable on scooters. I’ve been riding bikes my whole life, and I tend to think the opposite. I have much more control and power on a bike that I’m basically wrapped around then a scooter I stand on. I’ve gotten in accidents on both without helmets and never had anything other than sore palms, also both my parents rode bikes for decades without helmets and neither sustained a significant head injury. Able-ness defitin

> You can replace the bearings in most kick scooters with skateboard bearings for an easier ride.

Does this work even if you have large wheels? I have this: https://www.amazon.com/Micro-SA0034-Black-Scooter/dp/B001L2N...

> I have much more control and power on a bike that I’m basically wrapped around then a scooter I stand on.

If your bike falls over, what do you do?

That's the thing that really makes me feel safer on my scooter. I was riding my scooter in the rain one time, and didn't realize that metal grates would be slippery. My scooter skid and completely fell over sideways. At some point while it was falling, I automatically hopped off and let go†. The result was my scooter lying sideways on the pavement, and me standing up unharmed, and I feel like that would have ended differently on a bike. Is that incorrect?

†I assume that's what happened. It was so fast, I don't remember the exact moment—just the result.

I put my hands in my pockets when I walk down the street because I’m confident if I do trip, I can catch myself on my feet, same principle. If I feel a crash coming (because I hit some road debris, for example) I can maneuver the bike in a split second to either prevent the fall entirely or mitigate it to just looking like an awkward stop. Another factor is that I've ridden enough to read the road and not make mistakes that even lead to tight situations. To extend the analogy, like knowing not to walk on a smooth manhole cover in the rain.

As for the scooter, it looks like, yes it does work. According to the Questions section one person has done it and a separate user confirms its the right type of bearing. Search the questions for “Abec”. Should make a big difference. Have fun.

I agree that bicycles are a superior ride in every way, but a large number of people who don't use bikes do use scooters, and that's enough to make me a fan of them.

Also, speaking as someone who rides a pretty vanilla road bike, the rental e-bikes feel bizarre to me. You call scooters "grotesque" and "suboptimal," but have you ever tried a Jump bike? I can't put my finger on why, but after renting them a few times out of curiosity, I now find myself walking past them and going an extra block to find a scooter if necessary. I prefer my own bicycle over either rental option, but I think rental e-bikes will have to get a lot better before they become as popular as rental scooters. And even my bike doesn't win in all categories. Both rental options (and scooters especially) have an advantage in parking quickly and worry-free at my destination.

In any case, I'm happy to see a variety of options available. I hope rental scooters don't disappear until they are replaced by a better alternative that captures what is attractive about them.

>I can’t quite put my finger on why, but...

99% sure it’s that they all have that step-through geometry.

In many cities bikes get stolen within minutes from parking.

Most e-scooters can be folded up and carried into shops, offices and so on.

I have several examples of both, and ride them to work and shopping. And I completely agree with you. Scooters are a hoot to ride, and if I don’t have to carry more than my backpack will hold, I’d rather commute on the scooter.

But you need both hands, making even signaling a chore, and you can only carry what fits on your back. Scooters are no more difficult to ride than a bicycle, but they are much more difficult to ride safely than a bicycle. Compare to my electric bike with front and rear racks, a rack trunk, and a comfy seat and coffee cup holder.

Scooters pack small, that’s about the only utilitarian plus they have going IMO.

> Bikes can be fitted (for the most part) with different tires/wheels

Maybe there's a level of sensitive to being a bicyclist that I realize, but not that's something I've ever needed to consider mid-day at the office for my commute home. It's not like a hilly mountain bike trail suddenly grew out of the ground while I was on my lunch break that I unexpectedly need to cross in order to get home. (A planned detour the long way home is a different story.)

Personal transport evolves as technology changes. From the original iron and wood bone-shakers during the Victorian era followed by the later penny-farthings, to the chain and derailleur drive-trains that are popular today. Bicycles assume that the locomotive energy comes from a person, and are designed around that.

A useful amount of energy can now be stored in on-board batteries, with motors powerful enough to propel a person forwards, some are more powerful than a person can pedal. Some are even powerful enough for cars (requires a lot more batteries though). Electric motors are quieter and don't have exhaust like gasoline engines, either. (We also have self-balancing technology that lowers the learning curve for single-axle designs.)

Henry Ford, possibly apocryphally, "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” Shoving an electric motor on a bicycle's a faster horse. Maybe with some imagination we can do better than that.

Seattle-area scooter rider here. I don’t ride rentals, I have a Boosted Rev and a Xiaomi M365 (what many rentals use). I don’t think the rentals and the Xiaomi are really meant to be used in the wet of a Seattle winter. Even the Rev, which touts its weather-resistance, needs a fender extender if you don’t want to get covered in crap (which makes me question how much they tested said weather-resistance).

That said, it’s just another single-track vehicle like a bike, and all that comes with it. Such as, riding on ice or snow is foolish. But even if it’s just rain, reduced traction means increased chance of locking a wheel and dumping it. Hence the likely reason the rentals went away, along with who the hell is going to ride them in the rain? (Answer: people that went ahead and just bought their own.)

In summary, my only complaint is that by just standing there instead of pedaling, it is kind of hard to stay warm when it is chilly. Otherwise, empty trails make for a great ride this time of year.

You must be from Calgary! Unfortunately, scooters and bikes won't work when there is so much snow during the winter.

Is Calgary any worse than Finland?

* https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/never-mind-the-plo...

> Oulu in Finland and Winnipeg in Canada are two winter cities with remarkably different stories. Oulu is just like Winnipeg – except for the bike paths stretching for miles in every direction and the thousands of people riding bicycles in the snow – says Winter Bike to Work Day founder Anders Swanson

* https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/feb/12/ice-cycles-no...

That's downright insulting! I'm from Edmonton.

Yeah, I fear we have too much snow - while bicycles can still be used by the most stubborn, electric vehicles can't summon up that curmudgeonly spirit that will get them out of every second snow drift.

I'm very sorry to hear that! coming from a Vancouverite.

I spend a decent chunk of the year in Calgary for work and last year they kept the Lime bikes during the winter and on non-snow days, it was actually useful for getting around downtown. But this year they got rid of those too. Car2go is no longer in Calgary either, so transportation options are super limited.

> I'm very sorry to hear that! coming from a Vancouverite.

Not even made - given everything going on, I'm sincerely thinking about heading out that way myself.

Not entirely true: https://www.boredpanda.com/students-bicycle-school-winter-sn...

However I think below zero is better for biking than near zero to avoid remelting.

With the right gear, cycling in winter isn’t bad at all, provided the path is clear.

Anecdotal, but I've ridden a bike in winter only once. There was a lot of melted snow "slush". I almost slipped twice. One of those two times, I was right in front of a car when my back wheel slid off to the side, and I caught myself from falling just in time. I've never done it again, it seems suicidal to me. It was a mountain-style bike, and I would have assumed the tires had enough grip. I'm sure you can pick up tricks and get better at this with experience, but it seems at least an order of magnitude more dangerous than summer time biking.

Studded bike tires are common in bike friendly, cold cities. Work great with ice. It's all about the right tool for the job.

Although what a lot of winter bike commuters do in my city is go by bike 95% of the winter, and take the bus when the conditions are really bad.

I biked every day of the year for about ten years in NYC with an average commute of about six miles each way. This included a ride over either Manhattan or Williamsburg bridge, which get icy faster and stay slushy longer than terrestrial roads.

Always on regular 23c or 25c road tires.

I usually fell over about once per winter, which always kind of sucked. But by my estimation, riding the subway was a more miserable kind of experience.

You slide around a bit but you get used to it. The bike is usually but not always more stable than it feels.

It really seems to be an activity that takes a special type of person to enjoy - my wife, being an avid summer biker, tried winter biking a single time, and came back with a giant bruise on her knee and a bent pedal and swore never again.

Yes, I myself bought an elec scooter after experiencing the one in Los Angeles, & had to park it back in room because of all rain & winter.

Most likely because the batteries would be cold 24/7, which doesn't happen with personal bikes since you can detach them.

Not really when you have 5-7+ kids.

To be fair if you have 5-7+ kids you already gave up on a lot of things. In developed countries very very few families have more than 3-4 kids

When you have 5-7+ kids, you don't have them all at once. By the time you're having the last ones, the eldest can cycle on their own.

The anti-quint/sext/septuplet bias in this comment is astounding.

Chasing a rabbit trail here but how many parents have >4 children in the US?

This is a findable answer[0], though this only shows 3 or more children. Looks like 7,008,000 families have 3 or more children. Looking at the same site[1] for the number of people between, say, 15 and 49 (the thought being anyone less than 15 probably isn't a "parent" and anyone over 49 doesn't have children living at home anymore, or at least not ones they need to transport), we get 150.67 million "parents".

Some quick math gets us about 4.6%. Incidentally, that's similar to the number of LGBTQ persons in the US (4.5%)[2]

[0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/183790/number-of-familie...

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/241488/population-of-the...

[2] https://news.gallup.com/poll/234863/estimate-lgbt-population...

There's certainly one hell of a shift from between 3 and 4 though. And much less for...5 kids which the comment calls out.

That is true, and I will concede that.

Probably less than 1%

Number or age?

5-7 and even 10 year olds can easily be transported by bakfiets, it happens all the time in NL, besides that when they're 10 they can cycle by themselves (earlier even).

Which is not the norm in any developed economy where the average person can even consider owning a car.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com