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Comment by OnlineGladiator | Hacker News Reader

Why are you starting your argument with the assumption that unions are good for everyone? That's a very strong statement without any qualifications behind it.

I think unions historically have sometimes been great, and sometimes horrible. Two examples of unions actually making the world a worse place are the police unions and the teachers' unions in the United States.

If you wonder why we can't fix police corruption, it's because the union protects them - so you can't have both. If you wonder why we can't fix education, it's because the union actively defends teachers that are demonstrably bad for learning (and have visible apathy to the point of sleeping in class while "teaching" students) - so you can't have both.

There's more to the world than worker's rights.

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Police aren't workers, they are something entirely different since they would participate in anti-union activity. What is wrong with teacher's unions?

I don't know how you can say police aren't workers - they absolutely are. People are police for their jobs.

The teacher's unions protect teachers at the expense of students. Basically the union doesn't care - at all - about teaching students (it's for the teachers, after all). They only care about stopping teachers from getting fired. It's our youth that suffer from receiving a shitty education. The assumption that "the teacher is always right" is profoundly damaging to our youth. The decline of the American education system (below college) is well studied.

https://hechingerreport.org/third-indication-u-s-educational...

Just to throw out a counterpoint, there are some who feel the education system is not declining, although I disagree. I encourage you to come to your own conclusions.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2018/10/15/how-are-...

There's a movie about it if you want to watch it:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1566648/

Yes, it's a documentary with an angle, but there's enough information in there to convince me.

Show me a school where "the teacher is always right", it has largely been replaced with "the parent is always right".

The movie you link "Waiting for Superman" spends allot of time talking about the charter school movement which is not mentioned in your post. Arguably charter schools are an extension of "the parent is always right" motto as it is touted as giving the parent more choices. To talk about the decline of education and this movie without mentioning the role of charter schools is a disservice to the movie and the discussion.

> Show me a school where "the teacher is always right"

It has nothing to do with the schools. You can't fire teachers with tenure (edit: actually it's even worse - this is for any teachers not just with tenure) except under pretty outrageous circumstances. So even if they show up drunk, they are still gainfully employed.

https://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/17596

Ok, you can argue that police have benefits in their work from unions similar to other public sector unions. I was being a bit snarky since police would be the people to carry out violent action against union activity. Police serve the interests of the capitalist class who own the corporations, so that was all i was saying. But i think their union is harmful, too.

As far as teachers unions, that is an argument that a lot of people would disagree with but i've decided i don't want to discuss it in detail here.

I really don't think the world is black and white, but the more I learned about the teachers' unions in the US, I came to realize it actually comes down to one thing:

Do you value the teachers or the students more?

It has become so hostile, the dichotomy really is that stark. All attempts to negotiate with the teachers' union, even offering them substantial bonuses to fire teachers well known for terrible performance, have been met with "fuck you" by the union.

You're right, not everybody will agree. Some people will side with the teachers. I think those people are ruining future generations.

I get what it’s like to be a young idealist, but I just want to plant a thought in your head.

If we have universal disdain for police and perpetuate the idea that they are thugs, what type of workforce do you think will be willing to take that job, and how hard do you think the existing workforce will be motivated to behave better? In your own job, or in school, do you tend to be motivated more by encouragement, or by being made to feel like shit?

If we view it as respectful and honorable work, we are more likely to attract a workforce who values these things. When people are judged prematurely, I find that they tend to live up to those judgments, for better or for worse.

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