Comment by looping__lui | Hacker News Reader

Comment by looping__lui | Hacker News Reader

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That is a pretty arrogant and very Indian thing to say.

1) It’s not tourists or foreigners taking advantage of other Indians - it is Indians. Indian people disrespect and mistreat each other to an extend I have never seen anywhere else in the world. 2) It is not tourists who set the prices for taxi meters - it’s the Indian cities or governments; yet it is Indian cab drivers who often believe they stand above the Law and can take advantage of tourists because “they can afford it” 3) Nobody argues about rickshaws not doing a difficult job and I NEVER heard a tourist complain about the prices of rickshaw dwellers - only fellow Indians 4) It’s not tourists but Indians that pretend inflation doesn’t exist; tourists generally overpay

Yes, we “rich foreign tourists” can afford to pay 10USD for a ride across town; but it’s not the same deal as riding in an actually safe vehicle with seatbelts and a driver passing an actual driving license in Europe or the US; taking these aspects into account the 10 USD trips are a rip off

Yes, countries can continue to take advantage of tourists, squeeze them as much as they can and justify that with the “they can afford it”. I will never travel to India again unless I HAVE to for business purposes - because I am just tired of it. There are a million cleaner places on earth - with people being more honest. Yes, in other Asian countries people also haggle - but at least they take care of their environment.

You know, people that believe that “taking advantage of foreigners is ok because they have the money” aren’t exactly contributing to the reputation of a country. What’s left?

Treat everybody with respect - and good stuff will happen.

It's called the "I never bothered to learn the actual fare from a local friend" tax. I don't agree with it, but it's pretty trivial to get around. It's definitely not exclusive to Indians.

“taking advantage of foreigners is ok because they have the money” is not something most people believe. There is a large population that lives below the poverty line and will overcharge anyone who can and will take it.

Yes, we have a big cleanliness problem, but that's an extension of our poverty problem. We have a lot of people who's concern is providing for the family instead of fulfillment. It's not hard to see why that's not a priority for them.

We are stuck here because British colonization, theft, and messy departure left us poorer, with broken politics, and a corrupt bureaucracy. Still, that's an obstacle, not an excuse. We're improving. I see no country without problems.

We have quite a few pristine and beautiful places where the locals care about their surroundings. Did you visit anywhere beyond the city you had business in?

I've seen a shop owner in Gokarna cleaning very carefully the shop and then getting an icecream and throwing the paper right at his own doorstep. I've seen a lady in a second class train in Mumbai throwing plastic out of the window. And many other similar things. It's a cultural thing. Rome is dirty, milan is less and Munich is clean. It's cultural. Period.

Yes, it's partly cultural. It's also partly the Broken Window Syndrome[0]. People don't yet understand the value of keeping the surroundings clean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory

> Yes, we have a big cleanliness problem, but that's an extension of our poverty problem.

Pls don't blame the poor. I have seen the educated, the rich have complete disregard for public property and cleanliness.

> We are stuck here because British colonization.

Also, don't blame the political incompetence and failing governance on the imperialists. They gave Indians the freedom to change the system in any which way they wanted, and this is what they ended up with, for better or for worse. If history is any indicator, the powerful and the corrpupt always find ways to game the system, as it were.

I studied at an IIT in India for quite some time (loved the institution and the student body). I’ve seen more than most people I guess (from Ladakh to Mumbai to Varanasi).

In places without tourists people were generally honest. The street vendor living off a few rupees each day for bananas would not take a rupee too much. I wish I could believe the “the dumb tourist tax is helping the needy and poor” - but it only fills the pockets of the (relatively) wealthy. It’s their sense of “entitlement to the money of these wasteful Westerners”.

India and China (lived there for > 1 yr) were pretty much the same 25 yrs ago in terms of GDP and population. That was long after any British influence - yet both developed very differently.

If I had to make a guess, it would be: how people treat family and society. As a foreigner, it seemed to me that Indians never care about society or anybody except their own family. In China, people are very focused on society and less on family. In India, people were mainly interested in their own immediate gain - in China they had some “boundaries” at least.

Cleanliness is not “we can’t afford better” it is “people genuinely don’t care when it’s outside their house”. The slums in Mumbai were among the best organized and cleanest places I found in India. People cared because they had to and wanted to - not because they could afford.

In India whenever I asked an official (police) for help or advice, they would sell me off to some relative. In China I never experienced that.

I can’t generalize a couple of years abroad in different countries, but I would kind a take the guess that if you worked on actually “trying go make society work beyond immediate personal gain” things might look different in India.

I have a complex relationship with India - because of many positive and negative experiences. As you continue to rip us foreigners and tourists off - we will stop spending money in your country. I’m tired of being accused to “be too dumb to inform myself” when the police and society are just rigged to steal from me because I am white and “look rich”. I am tired of being accused that the entire world is just taking advantage of Indians when the trading balance tells otherwise and it’s Indian people that care so little about each other.

It was really sad and heartbreaking to see how in China pollution gets less and less whereas India really became “totally unbearable” in the recent years.

Yeah, no. India is a democracy, start with that.

I live in Europe so I’m generally happy with our political system. If I ever was to argue democracy is a bad idea - I would probably start with India as an example why it doesn’t work...

I understand that personal preferences may vary and people on HN probably enjoy a good portion of China bashing; but if I had to chose - it would always be China over India for me. Healthcare, education, social mobility, equality between men and women, legal system: I can’t think of any reason why I would prefer India over China.

I’m happy that thanks to Modi there now are toilets in India - but there is a lot to catch up still...

China has lifted more people out of poverty than the rest of the world combined.

In 2018, almost 1000 people got killed by police in the US. Not a great statistic either...

I agree that the attitude you're describing is the bane of India. We hate it too. The police steal from us too. We have strategies to adapt to its presence.

> There is a large population that lives below the poverty line and will overcharge anyone who can and will take it.

Well, governments deem progressive taxation to be fair, and is hailed by economists and general populace all around the world, so perhaps faulting people for doing the same is not quite fair in the large scheme of things.

However, it's just annoying, non-transparent and extremely frustrating.

> It's called the "I never bothered to learn the actual fare from a local friend" tax.

Victim blaming much?

You don't speak for me or most Indians when you claim that fleecing is okay because we were a colony 70+ years ago. Have some self-respect.

Most of the people who participated in that AND most of those who were affected by it are old and/or dead. Where we are right now is entirely on us, and even if it weren't, the people in the UK owe us nothing.

I am an Indian living in Europe. The supermarkets here charge you the maximum you would be willing to pay, even if it meant half the products will be thrown out in the dumpster, which has itself started "dumpster diving" as a culture.

The prices in India is generally insanely low, because the tax payers subsidise it for the poor or the poor themselves take a hit at the margin because the consumers are simply too poor to pay.

An example of tax payer subsidy is when the entry to a museum is 10 or 20 cents or public transports where tickets have an upper limit around 40-50 cents. The poor subsidising the market price is when the street vendor or vegetable market works on a thin margin simply because they can not sell for any higher.

Westerner especially Europeans must realise that they are being ripped off everyday by their own government & businesses which are focused only on profit maximisation instead of value to the consumer.

Europe has among the lowest food prices in the developed world. If you spend 3-5 EUR on ingredients you get a really healthy meal... Agricultural products are usually taxed below 10% and the agricultural sector is heavily subsidized; I would suspect that farmers in India live closer to the poverty line than in Europe - maybe that explains part of the differences for prices of raw materials; supply chain certainly is another: it’s true if everything is bought as locally produced the costs might be lower because no transportation, cooling etc. is needed... But kindly also do not forget food safety: I never had food poisoning in Europe - India is a whole different story... In Europe, drinking water comes out of the tap for free, electricity is super reliable and veeery cheap... Farmers in Europe do not have a history of committing suicide at scale...

Dumpster diving is not a big thing and it is simply incorrect that half the products are thrown away... People in Europe are generally very sensitive to food waste and the infrastructure we put in place to keep it fresh is pretty decent.

Democracy in Europe (and other places) decided that it is justified to “take money disproportionally from society” because “majority vote justifies that 20% of population need to pay for 80% of costs”. I may not like this aspect of democracy (e.g., majority gives always a justification over whatever you want to do) but well...

Indians might want to understand that Europe see taxes as a way to create a liveable and fair society. That the need and desire of the individual sometimes is not as important as “the greater good”.

In India, the rich are certainly not subsidizing the poor. If I am not mistaken, your “elite” keeps 2x India’s GDP hidden away in Switzerland still? The Swiss offered help - but your government refused and felt the money better stays where it is.

The society you see in India is the society Indians created. I would not trade it for Europe ever.

You are missing my point which is "foreigners aren't being ripped off just because they pay more than the locals". The locals pay for the subsidies directly or indirectly. Think of it as tourist tax (charged in some countries of Europe) if that still bothers you.

To your point above, I do appreciate the quality of life in Europe. However, even the most conscientious among the Europeans - the Nordics are not anymore greener than the american, it is largely a feel good window dressing.

I really wish I could think of it as a “tourist tax” benefiting the needy. But I rather have the feeling “its ending up in the pockets of the rich, powerful and corrupt”. So misses the point.

Prices for museums etc. ARE in fact much higher for tourists (factor 5-10x usually if I recall). In a sense the tourists probably subsidize many cultural sites for the Indian population (which is fair).

The energy consumption in the US is twice as high as in Europe per capita - eyeballing the numbers I believe India is not exactly green either (rural areas without any access to electricity etc. distort the numbers unless you want to keep those people “in the dark”...)

But it’s not only energy consumption - it’s also the passionate “trashing and burning of trash” that doesn’t do the Indian environment any good.

Delhi, Mumbai etc. - the air has become more and more toxic over the years.

I don’t want to start a “who is better who is worse” - but the “I only care for myself and nobody else” mentality affects all aspects from tourism to environment and harms the people themselves. That was the entire point.

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