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In Europe they have some interesting models in between that provide social security, health care and a lot of other great things for their citizens so even the people who don't have enough money to buy / invest in such services can enjoy a good life.
In the US there is people who do 3 jobs and don't have enough money to live a life I personally would consider a "good enough" one. Yes I know this also stems from my perspective and the standards I would label "poor" could be very high for an Asian child sewing clothes for us.
Now neoliberalism is trending there as well and we can observe how it "drags them down". Look at Germany for example - I don't think it's easy living there when you knew the 70ies and still be optimistic about the future if you don't happen to be a millionaire.
They had a good employment rate (now it's being faked as a friend told me) low poverty and a middle class with a high status of living and they were leaders in several disciplines. Now look how they lose all of that while some private companies take the money out of their public hand without even paying taxes. That's what neoliberalism brought them and I bet some of these Germans are very angry about it. I can understand them because who want's to lose the prospects of a good life?
In '94 for example they sold out their train infrastructure and now look at the development: ~16% of tracks where given up because it was not profitable for them. Now they would love to have it back because of the climate change etc.
There is a lot of examples and I could go on like this all day but I just wanted to contribute some facts about the EU to this discussion because I always thought they have some different but very interesting ideas.
I remember 1970s Germany as a visitor, and it seems to me that the quality of living has improved considerably in several aspects — food, technology, acceptance of diverse life styles, transitioning away from a car centric society, reduction of working hours.
This, to me, was especially evident in Berlin, where I have family. What used to be the western part is considerably nicer than it used to be in the 1980s, and the eastern part is even more markedly improved. I first visited Dresden a few years ago (so have no comparison to DDR times), but was stunned at the quality of life there.
Now, granted, the rise of extremist parties, especially in the east, shows that not everybody there shares my rosy view. And I'm not acquainted with anybody who lives on Hartz IV. But my relatives, far from being millionaires, still seem to enjoy a decent living standard, including solid health care benefits and decent schools.
As I said they even fake some numbers to let it appear to be better now. Like e.g. unemployment rate - now everyone who is in a useless training that he doesn't need and that doesn't help to get back into real jobs is not included in the numbers anymore (I think it was when von-der-Leyen announced the numbers herself or round about that time when they changed their work- and unemployment model).
While in the 70ies many/most people had good jobs (one was enough to finance a hole family!) nowadays they have minimum wage jobs that don't pay enough for single individuals to really enjoy life.
You can be glad not to be bound to get Hartz 4 - this is a nightmare compared to their old social security system.
To discuss this further I think we'd have to define "decent standard of living" because I suppose we understand something differently there.
The schools are not getting enough money and have a lot of problems they don't want to talk publicly about. If you are interested you should ask some German teachers about that because they tend to have some funny stories about school, the money which is spent and the system itself.
I think so, too and while I enjoy to discuss my views in an pseudo anonymous way here there seem to be people who are even now afraid to join a fair discussion.
Maybe they hope to make me shut up but I am used to people who are afraid of my ideas (already stood in court because of this).
That's a pretty low standard.
You're actually speaking to a German living in France right here. And yes, I'd largely share your analysis. People are angry, and for good reason. To add insult to injury, many of these changes were made by the social democrats, which really cemented the idea in people's head that none of the mainstream parties see an alternative. "Alternativlos" (Merkel's german equivalent of Thatcher's "There is no alternative") is the mantra that has prevented any real changes from being made. The Market is seen as the beginning and end of all discussion, and if it has inherent flaws, well, you can curse them, but you cannot argue against it. It's like the weather.
There are similar examples in other countries of course.
Personally I'm seeing this here in Grenoble. France has a reputation for an overpaid and "too comfortable" public sector, but that has only really become a problem since the government has decided to drastically reduce spending. I live in Grenoble (a ~400K metropolitan area, so a small town for french standards) and the federal government has unilaterally decided to reduce the city's budget by ~30% over the last 3-4 years. The effects are things like public baths closing or reducing service (disproportionally affecting poorer people) and even blatant violations of unalienable rights of the poorest of poor. This is not a metaphor or something: there is no more money to provide emergency shelter to asylum seekers, which is, by law, guaranteed to everyone in any situation of need, no questions asked. Now they live in tents next to the train station. It's shameful.
On a less personal note: the NHS in the UK seems to be a good natural experiment. It is described in some detail in the book I mentioned in the GP. Since Scotland and other regions had some leeway in how to run their NHS, they didn't follow along with all the neoliberal policies of the 90s. The result is that the English NHS has longer waiting times, worse health outcomes, and a drastically increased administrational overhead (went from ~5% to ~14%!) while the Scottish NHS fares better in all of these aspects.
This all happens within a European framework of course. I like the idea of open borders and shared prosperity, I have personally been very lucky to profit from these (via Erasmus and the possibility to "just move to another country" twice) but the entire idea of the European Union, as I have come to realize over the last years, is not to unify people and build bridges across borders. The idea of the EU is to open markets, and let The Market figure out the "shared prosperity". It is a fundamentally neoliberal institution. And that is not even talking about many of its practical (transparency/electoral/etc) flaws. For any practical changes that affect the individual (roaming/open borders/shared currency) the liberalization for companies vastly outsizes that given to the individual. And then there are tons of examples where EU border-opening does nothing for the individual, and only liberalizes the markets to allow corporations more freedoms. An example is the liberalization of the railroad systems. After harmonizing the technical level, the EU liberalized access of e.g. companies to operate on other nations' railroad networks. But despite knowing that there is not enough market incentive for The Market to offer decent cross border offers, the EU governments declined to force their (largely politically controlled) railroad companies to do so. For the individual, crossing borders for vacation/work has become easier (because of the shared currency) but e.g. commuting across borders by train remains a financial and practical nightmare. Direct social/economic interaction would really have the potential to fuse European citizens into a real union, but that was never the idea.
So yeah, you're right, the EU and its nations had (and to a degree still have) some interesting middle ground ideas. And you're also right that they are being eroded away by a neoliberal project. We can see the effects in near realtime, and it's not heading in a good direction...
edited to add example.
However is that really attributable to the existence of the EEC? Or was it the fact that the Cold War was ongoing, and that Germany was essentially disarmed and occupied?
I'd suggest that the latter was sufficient to prevent a war between Germany and France (the feared intra-european war). Hence we can not make any claims as to if the existence of the EEC/EU was necessary for that peace in the period prior to 1994.
The post 1994 period is more interesting (especially after 2008), and here the EU does provide forums for greater understanding between the nations of its member states.
So if we want to measure the EU's ability to create peace within its bounds, I'd suggest we only start counting from 10 years ago.
As to the neoliberal agenda, I'd suggest that started with the Single Market and its increased regulatory convergence, hence also from around 1994.
Former Yugoslavia aside, this is no guarantee there won't be and with the rise of nationalism things are not looking good.
I'm German-French. I honestly believe I've never met anyone in my life in my age group (that I've talked to enough to say this) who would be willing to go fight a neighboring country.
Where would these people, and support for them, come from?
You can argue that I was naive kid but war came as a big surprise to large percentage of adults too. From memoirs of various politicians it's clear that they had much better grasp on reality but for general public things moved from bad to worse really, really fast.
I do believe, though, that there's something about stable, market-oriented democracies that makes violent conflict unlikely, and there's quite some empirical evidence for that, too. See Steven Pinker and so on. The history of Yugoslavia may therefore not generalize to today's Europe.
Also, attitudes of people do matter, and they certainly do in a democracy. Many of the young men who went to fight in WW1 truly believed they were taking part in some great, noble, adventure of historic proportions. This world view just does not exist anymore, it seems about as close to my life as, say, the Spanish inquisition, and I'd wager that's true for most people in Europe today.
Yeah, things are stable when economy is good (worked for Yugoslavia too) but what's going to happen in case of huge economic downturn like in the 30thies with millions out of work?
Attitudes of people change as a reaction to the changes in their environment (real or perceived). And you don't need a majority, you just need a critical mass of people to stray and start chain of events that effects everyone.
I certainly believe that market-oriented democracies are more stable than Yugoslavia, I'm just not sure how much more stable they are.
Maybe I'm just to pessimistic after everything that happened in the last 30 years here.
And thank you for the exchange.
Just to give you one example: if a Trump type would gain the upper hand in any one of the larger European countries all of which have a strong representation of what I'd loosely term neo-nationalists the stage would be set for an 'us vs them' degrading of international relations. The UK is a prime candidate for this. If such an aggressor were to aim to go for retribution based on perceived sleights (for instance: the economy tanking because of 'them') then you just might have to defend yourself from that.
Which would not cause you to have to fight in a neighboring country, it might cause you to fight in your own.
Alternatives for this: the Baltics, Poland, Hungary, Moldavia and Romania are all sitting on Putin's doorstep and splitting Europe could be the precursor to Russia crossing its borders. Especially the Baltic situation is very much analogue to the Ukraine one with Kaliningrad in the role of Eastern Ukraine and the ethnic Russian population in Latvia and Lithuania potentially mobilized in the same way they were in Ukraine.
Europe/NATO then has the choice to fall apart or come to the aid of their members; which more or less would set the stage for WWIII.
None of this is fun to contemplate but I think these risks are real.
> Which would not cause you to have to fight in a neighboring country, it might cause you to fight in your own.
I see what you're saying, but I didn't say "fight in a neighboring country", but "fight a neighboring country".
The idea that the world is a game of Civilization and that there is anything to be gained by invading some other country is largely seen as absurd here, as far as my personal experience goes. That's the point I was making. You would first need to raise a whole generation of people who see that differently, which frankly sounds about as realistic as raising a generation of people who will challenge their rival to a pistol duel because they slept with their girlfriend.
And I really can't see the scenario where it truly becomes a question of self defense, and some continental european country needs to defend itself against the pillaging and raping british. Is there any indication in the UK that anybody would be interest in that type of activity?
Regarding your point about the eastern border of the EU, and Russia's activities there - that one I'll grant you. But still, from there to intra-european strife still seems like a long way.
As for raising a whole generation: all it would take is for the current civil unrest to go up a couple of notches before it will spill over. I've seen it before and the signs are all there, whether for good or for bad once there is a certain amount of energy in the system it tends to work its way out in a violent way, rarely in a non-violent way.
For that you need different people at the helm.
> Is there any indication in the UK that anybody would be interest in that type of activity?
Give it a few years post Brexit and economic hardship and you'll have them lining up in droves. Scapegoating is a tried and true pastime.
I could see that in theory, but what kind of economic hardship are we talking about? In the world that led to the World Wars, everyday life for poor people was closer in comfort to the life in the trenches of the front than to everyday life for your average western European of today. And lots of people were poor.
By contrast, even an unexpectedly sharp post-Brexit downturn would probably just mean slightly more unemployment, some missed promotions. It's hard to imagine the UK would fall back behind, say, eastern European countries like Poland where people on average aren't rich, but can live an alright life.
I don't see any obstacle to this in terms of the attitudes of the people involved. It'd be really, really easy to raise a generation of men who thought this was a reasonable thing to do.
It's not happening now because of external controls, not because so many people are shocked at the very idea.
But a life-or-death duel is something else. It's a ritualized way of obtaining satisfaction relative to some mortal insult to your honor. That custom existed in Europe in a world that was completely different from today's, amongst a narrow and very specific stratum of society.
Then with the loss of the SM, and no trading relations (probably for 7+ years), our economy will take a serious hit, and we'll likely suffer some form of recession. There are plenty of us who know that such an economic impact is simply a consequence of our own choices.
We're going to be too busy sorting out our own problems, with each domestic side blaming the others, and possibly successive governments from opposite sides of political spectrum. A return to the 70s.
So I rather doubt we'll be a threat to any other European state. We'll be navel gazing for some time.
Also our conventional forces are seriously eroded, we've wasted money on useless aircraft carriers, and other vanity kit.
The real worry should be if the UK becomes a failed state, and some nutter finds the nuclear trigger.
I don't rule that out. The amount of venom and irrationality injected into UK politics right now as well as the Scottish / Irish issues combined with a healthy bunch of scapegoating could just about do it. Best case the Union collapses, Scotland joins the EU (against the wishes of Spain this will be a hard thing to accomplish) and Ireland does not fall back into their old habits.
It's a serious problem and the number of people that will suffer because of these idiots that are trying hard to diminish the size of the pond so they will appear bigger is going to be in the 10's of millions at best, many more in the worst case.
A massive influx of refugees from the Middle East in particular could have the effect of destabilizing any of the countries that accept them. It could also embolden and empower nationalists who in turn may make extreme choices that could lead to open hostility. If there's a resurgence in radical
Climate change may indeed be the cause of large refugee crises hitting Europe. Depending on how bad climate change related events are, it could degrade the ability of governments to maintain order and provide public services. Those are things that can lead to unpredictable and violent outcomes.
Then there's the specter of Putin's Russia using covert and direct military action to reclaim former Soviet territory, subvert European governments, spread nationalist propaganda, etc.
And there's always the Black swan event that no one had on their radar that could massively change the playing board.
We've already seen a big upheaval with Brexit, the Trump presidency, and the Syrua refugee crisis. More of that kind of stuff would be really bad news for Europe.
[1] https://thehistoryofrome.typepad.com/the_history_of_rome/201...
Out of curiosity: was it a conscious decision for France and against Germany or did you get there by chance?
Yes, I've heard about "Alternativlos" and I think it's dangerous when people argue like this because there is always an alternative. Very interesting that you say it was the social democrats because in the US they are seen as very leftist (some even use the K-word) and in my opinion what they did is not very leftist.
To put markets on the same level as the weather is a pretty old idea which was spread by Adam Smith a lot but in the end it is made by men and therefor can't be a natural phenomenon and obviously it doesn't control itself in a way that the people profit from it (if we ignore the upper 1% of course).
To reduce public spendings seems to be a trend in Germany as well and I've heard about the goal to keep the "schwarze null" in this context a lot. I wonder how they (Germany, France etc.) will deal with 10x the number of refugees because that is one of the minimum estimates for the next few decades.
The book you talk about seems to be very interesting and I will definitely try to read it some time.
The EU is a really nice construct when looking at the originally postulated ideas behind it but I think it lacks a clear vision (instead of e.g. China) and I feel the same as you about them only opening up markets while forgetting the people. When the EU shattered Greece I couldn't believe my eyes because until then I thought that was exactly one of the situations they would tackle easily with all their resources etc.
While the economy could shake off some chains in the last decades in Europe the freedom of the individuals is more and more being restricted (many use terrorism and the fear of foreigners stealing jobs, money and their identity to achieve this).
Infrastructure like the railroad suffered as well and the Germans denationalized their "Deutsche Bahn" in the 90ies only to loose a huge amount of tracks and work even less efficiently.
There is a thought that really makes me sad about that besides the fact that they corrupted their own basically beautiful idea (achieve something together) and that is a whole generation of young people who really believed in this disney-like promise of the EU. They grew up with it and now have to witness how they've been lied to by their own governments starting at the very beginning.
At least there is still people like you who stay in the EU and maybe will have an impact on how things will develop in the near future. This gives me back some hope :)
The pseudo-Marxist imagery is just a wrapping. Politically, North Korea is a semi-industrialised feudal monarchy. Just as the USSR was an industrialised nationalistic proto-monarchy controlled by an emperor.
If you want millions of deaths, promote nationalism and imperialism. They always deliver.
Because it's wishful thinking. Frantic anti-nationalism in both words and actions was a cornerstone of life in the USSR, from Stalin's deportation of millions of "unreliable nationalities" to Brezhnev-era "friendship of peoples".
A "new Soviet man" (superhuman) was expected to emerge from that, with no nationality, no religion, no traditions, completely selfless, loyal only to the communist party, and devoted to work. This is as far from nationalism as one can get in practical terms.
This was not only ideological matter, but nationalism presented a fundamental threat to the Soviet Union, it enabled people in the USSR to self-organize and eventually break free. Nationalist movements that rallied people for self-government and democratic freedoms were a key factor in the collapse of the USSR.
It’s what communism is like in practice. You can’t say ‘that’s not true communism’ when that’s how every communist state ends up.
Do you have some counter examples?